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> Police probe racism allegations for Ashley Cole 'choc ice' tweet.
Andy Capp
post Jul 17 2012, 02:45 PM
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Firstly, I don't think people should necessarily be fined for a single incidence of verbal abuse. I also think that had the legal process been ignored, John Terry would have not been 'forced' to deny the charge and could have simply offered what I think would have been a far more dignified resolution by offering a public apology for his words..

It seems though, Rio Ferdinand thinks 'choc-ice' is funny. Even when levelled at a 'friend'. While it is not obscene, it is far from a friendly comment that some with strong cultural ties would find very offensive.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-18870695
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TallDarkAndHands...
post Jul 17 2012, 03:06 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jul 17 2012, 03:45 PM) *
Firstly, I don't think people should necessarily be find for single incidence of verbal abuse. I also think that had the legal process been ignored, John Terry would have not been 'forced' to deny the charge and could have simply offered what I think would have been a far more dignified resolution by offering a public apology for his words..

It seems though, Rio Ferdinand thinks 'choc-ice' is funny. Even when levelled at a 'friend'. While it is not obscene, it is far from a friendly comment that some with strong cultural ties would find very offensive.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-18870695


Andy - But it is Ok for black people to be racist. They call each other N****rs all the time. It's only us bad old white slave masters that are still intolerant bigots that should all be rounded up and shot by the do gooding pc brigade (a large number of which are on this forum!).
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Timbo
post Jul 17 2012, 03:37 PM
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PC to the highest level. Next it'll be racist to say Vanilla when ordering a cone of white, plain tasting ice cream.
Problem is people don't understand context.

In the last 5 years the whole PC crap has gone to an almighty new level.
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TallDarkAndHands...
post Jul 17 2012, 03:53 PM
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QUOTE (Timbo @ Jul 17 2012, 04:37 PM) *
PC to the highest level. Next it'll be racist to say Vanilla when ordering a cone of white, plain tasting ice cream.
Problem is people don't understand context.

In the last 5 years the whole PC crap has gone to an almighty new level.


I once attended a company in London that served "non-white coffee..." blink.gif
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Squelchy
post Jul 17 2012, 03:56 PM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jul 17 2012, 04:06 PM) *
They call each other N****rs all the time.
Do they? Doubtless all your black friends do. But what evidence can you show to support this?

As Chris Rock says, it's all about context. Besides which, and it's awkward to grasp, I know, the word they use when written down ends with an 'a' or an 'as'. It became a short-hand term of describing a certain kind of outlook and life style.

Way back in the long ago, one of the then more popular 'rappers' (notorious B.I.G.) famously made a station ident for radio station 106 KMEL. He told people to "check out my niggas Trace and Franzen" Two of the station's D.J.s. He saw no problem with the fact that they were both white, and by doing so within that context he gave license to all kinds of people to use the word.

Tarantino took it as license certainly and stuck it in most of his movies around that time.

It's all about context.
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Simon Kirby
post Jul 17 2012, 03:58 PM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jul 17 2012, 04:06 PM) *
Andy - But it is Ok for black people to be racist. They call each other N****rs all the time. It's only us bad old white slave masters that are still intolerant bigots that should all be rounded up and shot by the do gooding pc brigade (a large number of which are on this forum!).

Do you think you could put together a rational defence of your position without all the lazy "do gooding pc brigade" rhetoric?

Are you saying that you want to be free to use whatever racial insults you like, or are you saying that you want to be free to use the N-word to refer to black people as a statement of solidarity with their struggle for equality and dignity?

As for black people refering to each other with the N-word, I can't say I like it, I think the word is beyound all redemption. I believe the word is used ironically, reclaiming the insult in defiance of the insulter, though I might be wrong, I find much of the minority black culture where you'd find that word in use misogynistic and violent so there's no particular reason it has anything helpful to say about racial tolerance. But whatever, even if there is some justification for the use of the N-word black-on-black, if you're not black you can't use it.


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TallDarkAndHands...
post Jul 17 2012, 04:12 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jul 17 2012, 04:58 PM) *
Do you think you could put together a rational defence of your position without all the lazy "do gooding pc brigade" rhetoric?

Are you saying that you want to be free to use whatever racial insults you like, or are you saying that you want to be free to use the N-word to refer to black people as a statement of solidarity with their struggle for equality and dignity?

As for black people refering to each other with the N-word, I can't say I like it, I think the word is beyound all redemption. I believe the word is used ironically, reclaiming the insult in defiance of the insulter, though I might be wrong, I find much of the minority black culture where you'd find that word in use misogynistic and violent so there's no particular reason it has anything helpful to say about racial tolerance. But whatever, even if there is some justification for the use of the N-word black-on-black, if you're not black you can't use it.


There can be NO justification for the use of the word. BY ANYBODY. That is my point.
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Andy Capp
post Jul 17 2012, 04:15 PM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jul 17 2012, 05:12 PM) *
There can be NO justification for the use of the word. BY ANYBODY. That is my point.

I agree. The use by the black community can be an ironic slur on 'us'.
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Timbo
post Jul 17 2012, 04:17 PM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jul 17 2012, 05:12 PM) *
There can be NO justification for the use of the word. BY ANYBODY. That is my point.


I disagree. By making things seem taboo you are in turn causing political correctness and causing that word or references to be taboo.

As said the difference between Gary the Liverpool supporter and Biggie is that Biggie would use the word to refer to a positive bond with friends. And it's easy to tell that in context. Where as Gary giving the one finger salute saying "PISS OFF BACK TO YOUR OWN COUNTRY YOU ******** N***** is quite another.

I dont think there's a justification to use words like profusely or omnipitent but people do and I wouldn't dare try to censor people because I found it personally annoying or wrong
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TallDarkAndHands...
post Jul 17 2012, 04:21 PM
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QUOTE (Timbo @ Jul 17 2012, 05:17 PM) *
I disagree. By making things seem taboo you are in turn causing political correctness and causing that word or references to be taboo.

As said the difference between Gary the Liverpool supporter and Biggie is that Biggie would use the word to refer to a positive bond with friends. And it's easy to tell that in context. Where as Gary giving the one finger salute saying "PISS OFF BACK TO YOUR OWN COUNTRY YOU ******** N***** is quite another.

I dont think there's a justification to use words like profusely or omnipitent but people do and I wouldn't dare try to censor people because I found it personally annoying or wrong


I'm confused. Its ok for some people to use certain words but not other people. Who defines who is allowed to say what? Do me a favour and publish a dictionary for us poor souls who don't keep up to date with modern music of words we are allowed to say and those we are not. The goal posts seem to move all the time in any case. sad.gif
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Timbo
post Jul 17 2012, 04:27 PM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jul 17 2012, 05:21 PM) *
I'm confused. Its ok for some people to use certain words but not other people. Who defines who is allowed to say what? Do me a favour and publish a dictionary for us poor souls who don't keep up to date with modern music of words we are allowed to say and those we are not. The goal posts seem to move all the time in any case. sad.gif


No, I'm saying it's about context. I'm not saying only certain people can say certain words. But there are certain cultures who use the words more.
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FactFile
post Jul 17 2012, 04:41 PM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jul 17 2012, 05:12 PM) *
There can be NO justification for the use of the word. BY ANYBODY. That is my point.


So, one minute you're lambasting the 'PC' brigade, the next you seem to be saying that you actually want to BAN words.

QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jul 17 2012, 05:21 PM) *
I'm confused.


Clearly.


QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jul 17 2012, 05:21 PM) *
Do me a favour and publish a dictionary for us poor souls who don't keep up to date with modern music of words we are allowed to say and those we are not.


If you're unsure, keep it buttoned.
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spartacus
post Jul 17 2012, 11:02 PM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jul 17 2012, 04:06 PM) *
But it is Ok for black people to be racist. They call each other N****rs all the time.
Man, dey is talkin' gangsta innit... 'n dey is talkin' to their bro's in the hood man innit.... wicked.....
(normally after watching too many american TV cop shows)

Interesting to note that one of the very few derogatory words from those american TV shows of yesteryear that never caught on this side of the pond is 'Honky'...
Supposedly a term of offence used against white (or Caucasian) people, but can you imagine anyone trying to make the same sort of fuss over being called a 'honky' and being taken seriously? Are we less sensitive to supposedly racial insults?
HuggyBear in Starsky & Hutch got away with it.... but I guess it's all down to context.... rolleyes.gif




QUOTE (Timbo @ Jul 17 2012, 04:37 PM) *
In the last 5 years the whole PC crap has gone to an almighty new level.
**** sight longer than 5 years


QUOTE (Timbo @ Jul 17 2012, 05:17 PM) *
I disagree. By making things seem taboo you are in turn causing political correctness and causing that word or references to be taboo.
Really? Pressure from the masses (of Daily Mail readers) helps feed the PC machine though... How many people (of a certain age) have a golliwog doll hidden away up in the loft or had one when they or their sisters were toddlers. That's something that can no longer be admitted to without bringing shame upon yourself as some form of racist....

A collection of golliwog pins from Robinson jam anyone? I know I had a few somewhere, but if I brought those out to show the grandchildren they'd be horrified (for no apparent reason)

btw are we still allowed to used the racial descriptive term 'Fuzzy-Wuzzies'?


QUOTE (Timbo @ Jul 17 2012, 05:17 PM) *
I dont think there's a justification to use words like profusely or omnipitent but people do and I wouldn't dare try to censor people because I found it personally annoying or wrong
What about words like '*******'? (EDIT: Obviously not as it's been bleeped out... rolleyes.gif I say again spa-stic) Ian Dury had no problems using it and even wrote the song Spasticus Autisticus. However if I want to listen to that album again I'd better make sure I've got the headphones on or I'll have the PC police breaking down the door and locking me up in irons....

QUOTE (FactFile @ Jul 17 2012, 05:41 PM) *
If you're unsure, keep it buttoned.

.....otherwise you may offend the thin skinned
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Simon Kirby
post Jul 18 2012, 08:32 AM
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QUOTE (spartacus @ Jul 18 2012, 12:02 AM) *
.....otherwise you may offend the thin skinned

Or simply offend.

You've broadended the argument, but the problem with "*******" is that it was used as a term of offence. It was a perfectly servicable word for a specific physical health problem, but it was co-opted by that section of society that felt challenged and offended by the condition and became a catch-all term of abuse not just for people with cerebral palsy but for a variety of non-******* physical health problems such as multiple sclerosis and muscular dystrophy, and then more generally for people who were mentally retarded, as well as people with neurological disorders such as epilepsy who were prone to "spas-out" - a phrase I've used myself.

It's not the words themselves, it's what the words connote, the payload of hatred and social rejection. Calling an Australian as Ozzie is fine because despite the banter there's a deep underlying respect and affection in no small part born out of Gallipoli, but call a Pakistani a ****, and the payload is quite different - similar words with exactly the same derivation, but the senses couldn't be more different.


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Newbelly
post Jul 18 2012, 08:37 AM
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Re the “choc-ice” comment, black police officers have been called “Coconuts” for years by some in the West Indian “community”. Some people refer to this as “double” racism as it insults both black and white...
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Timbo
post Jul 18 2012, 12:20 PM
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QUOTE (spartacus @ Jul 18 2012, 12:02 AM) *
Man, dey is talkin' gangsta innit... 'n dey is talkin' to their bro's in the hood man innit.... wicked.....
(normally after watching too many american TV cop shows)

Interesting to note that one of the very few derogatory words from those american TV shows of yesteryear that never caught on this side of the pond is 'Honky'...
Supposedly a term of offence used against white (or Caucasian) people, but can you imagine anyone trying to make the same sort of fuss over being called a 'honky' and being taken seriously? Are we less sensitive to supposedly racial insults?
HuggyBear in Starsky & Hutch got away with it.... but I guess it's all down to context.... rolleyes.gif




**** sight longer than 5 years


Really? Pressure from the masses (of Daily Mail readers) helps feed the PC machine though... How many people (of a certain age) have a golliwog doll hidden away up in the loft or had one when they or their sisters were toddlers. That's something that can no longer be admitted to without bringing shame upon yourself as some form of racist....

A collection of golliwog pins from Robinson jam anyone? I know I had a few somewhere, but if I brought those out to show the grandchildren they'd be horrified (for no apparent reason)

btw are we still allowed to used the racial descriptive term 'Fuzzy-Wuzzies'?


What about words like '*******'? (EDIT: Obviously not as it's been bleeped out... rolleyes.gif I say again spa-stic) Ian Dury had no problems using it and even wrote the song Spasticus Autisticus. However if I want to listen to that album again I'd better make sure I've got the headphones on or I'll have the PC police breaking down the door and locking me up in irons....


.....otherwise you may offend the thin skinned


Very much agree in principle. I remember that story, the woman got arrested for having a teddy called Muhammed. And then that whole court case over someone who had a gollywog doll in a window.. racism.. If people didn't make these things seem taboo, and like it didn't have to be talked about in hushed whispers, the PC-ness would go away. I use the word spa-stic all the time. Obviously not as an insult but mainly as slang to describe things which have broken or ceased functioning..."my PC has gone spasticated", I'd tell my friend.

Most of the PC-ness comes from the older generation. Many people are still inherently racist and I suppose compensate by making things out to be racist which aren't, to make them look not racist. (confusing logic I know...)

And the younger, fresher generation tend, generally, not to pay much attention to it. I remember a few kids I used to work with, white, would refer to their friends as "n****az" or "homies" when the Grand Theft Auto San Andreas game was released. There were a couple of black kids in the class and they never really minded, I did take them to one side quietly as if it was causing them offence I wanted to nip it in the bud, but they said they did not feel offended by it at all, as it was just a way of talking about people they were close with.
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Timbo
post Jul 18 2012, 12:25 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jul 18 2012, 09:32 AM) *
Or simply offend.

You've broadended the argument, but the problem with "*******" is that it was used as a term of offence. It was a perfectly servicable word for a specific physical health problem, but it was co-opted by that section of society that felt challenged and offended by the condition and became a catch-all term of abuse not just for people with cerebral palsy but for a variety of non-******* physical health problems such as multiple sclerosis and muscular dystrophy, and then more generally for people who were mentally retarded, as well as people with neurological disorders such as epilepsy who were prone to "spas-out" - a phrase I've used myself.

It's not the words themselves, it's what the words connote, the payload of hatred and social rejection. Calling an Australian as Ozzie is fine because despite the banter there's a deep underlying respect and affection in no small part born out of Gallipoli, but call a Pakistani a ****, and the payload is quite different - similar words with exactly the same derivation, but the senses couldn't be more different.


Simon, I disagree my friend. (what happened with the shed in the end?)

Ozzie is short (speaking terms) for Australian.
Brit or Scot is short for British/Scottish.
A **** can be used offensively but is also short for a person of Pakistani origin.

I'm friends with some people who are indian, who are English born and bred, but bi-lingual in Punjabi. They teach me all sorts of bad words, we insult each other in Punjabi all the time, and they don't care. They don't call if you call them a ****, or if you say you'll get immigration onto them. Then again they are my friends.

Ah well. It's all crap anyway, I wonder how long until they implant devices into our brain and censor us before we can even speak...?
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Nothing Much
post Jul 18 2012, 01:08 PM
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Sorry. Pointless comment best forgotten.
I like the delete button . It gets me out of a lot of trouble.
ce.
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JeffG
post Jul 18 2012, 01:50 PM
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QUOTE (Timbo @ Jul 18 2012, 01:20 PM) *
would refer to their friends as "n****az" or "homies"

I though "homie" was just US slang for "mate", and nothing offensive.
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Timbo
post Jul 18 2012, 02:44 PM
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Yeah it is but black people say it so it's obviously racist if white people do.
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