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> Rail fares to rise by RPI + 1%, Good value?
Biker1
post Dec 21 2011, 10:15 AM
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FGW rail fares are to rise by approx 6% in the new year.
Is this good value bearing in mind that it is reported that motoring costs have risen by twice that amount in the last 12 months?
Is the extra revenue to go on shareholders dividends or to be re-invested in the infrastructure as we are told?
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NWNREADER
post Dec 21 2011, 10:22 AM
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I'm no train buff, but I use them from time to time for work.
The only thing I find odd about FGW is they do not seem to participate in advance purchase schemes.

If I travel to London I don't seem to be able to do it for less than #40+, any time of day and any period in advance. I recently travelled to Birmingham new Street at 0900 for #19 with Virgin (via Reading). Same when I have looked at train options to the West Country, but just as long a journey up the east coast (via London) can be really cheap.
To me it makes it hard to get my head round the pricing strategy, let alone marketing the train as a viable option.
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Simon Kirby
post Dec 21 2011, 01:21 PM
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QUOTE (Biker1 @ Dec 21 2011, 10:15 AM) *
FGW rail fares are to rise by approx 6% in the new year.
Is this good value bearing in mind that it is reported that motoring costs have risen by twice that amount in the last 12 months?
Is the extra revenue to go on shareholders dividends or to be re-invested in the infrastructure as we are told?

By my estimate the real-terms cost of motoring fell by 2.4% this year. Every year after the spring budget the AA publish true cost-of-moting tables for a variety of car sizes and annual mileages (see 2010, and 2011). Comparing the cost-of-motoring for a typical family diesel car in the £17,000 to £20,000 price range and an annual milage of 10,000 gives a cost per mile increase of 2.9%, and with the March all-items RPI at 5.3% this represnets a real-terms reduction in the true cost of motoring for a typical family car of 2.4%.

On this basis an RPI+1% increase is equivelent to Cost of Motoring Index + 3.4% increase.

However, I'm not sure how helpful it is to compare the cost of rail travel in these terms. For starters, what's the comparable cost of rail travel? For example, Birming Park and Ride Kings Norton to Five Ways, £3.70 return with free parking at Kings Norton, that's less than half the cost of the equivelent car journey and then you'd have the not insignificant difficulty of parking in central Birmingham. However, take a first class Anytime Return from Newbury to Bath Spa at £194 and that's about 155p per mile, and that's two and a half times the equivelent cost of the car journey, and if you actually have a car then the comparative cost of the car journey is more like 15p per mile as you've already paid for the insurance and depreciation and stuff whether you drive the thing or not, and if you're carrying passangers they're free in the car but full-fare on the train.

Just saying that comparing cost of rail with car is not at all simple.


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Biker1
post Dec 21 2011, 01:25 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Dec 21 2011, 03:21 PM) *
Just saying that comparing cost of rail with car is not at all simple.

Agree, but that is what the TOC's are doing this time it would appear.

QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Dec 21 2011, 03:21 PM) *
if you're carrying passangers they're free in the car but full-fare on the train.

Not necessarily true.
There is a deal called "Groupsave" for parties of travellers.
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Andy Capp
post Dec 21 2011, 01:57 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Dec 21 2011, 01:21 PM) *
Just saying that comparing cost of rail with car is not at all simple.

Of course not, but what is true is the rail network could not cope with a massive swing to train usage. It is without doubt our rail provision is a mess.
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Simon Kirby
post Dec 21 2011, 02:00 PM
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QUOTE (Biker1 @ Dec 21 2011, 01:25 PM) *
There is a deal called "Groupsave" for parties of travellers.

Sounds almost Orwellian. I don't take the train much, but there has always seemed to be too great a variety of ticket - even the ticket office doesn't always understand the best ticket to sell you.


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Simon Kirby
post Dec 21 2011, 02:01 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Dec 21 2011, 01:57 PM) *
Of course not, but what is true is the rail network could not cope with a massive swing to train usage. It is without doubt our rail provision is a mess.

Going up to town isn't great, but the picture nationally can be very different.


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TallDarkAndHands...
post Dec 21 2011, 03:31 PM
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The prices are going up because we need to pay for public sector pensions. wink.gif
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Simon Kirby
post Dec 21 2011, 04:09 PM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Dec 21 2011, 03:31 PM) *
The prices are going up because we need to pay for public sector pensions. wink.gif

Seems a rather spurious thing to say - you might as well say the public sector pay restraint is necessary because of the state subsidy of the railways. Care to explain why freezing fares and increasing tax-payer support for rail would be the right thing to do?


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Berkshirelad
post Dec 21 2011, 04:15 PM
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Don't forget that the 5.9% increase isn't all fares - only those that are regulated
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TallDarkAndHands...
post Dec 21 2011, 04:21 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Dec 21 2011, 04:09 PM) *
Seems a rather spurious thing to say - you might as well say the public sector pay restraint is necessary because of the state subsidy of the railways. Care to explain why freezing fares and increasing tax-payer support for rail would be the right thing to do?


No thanks. The Railways should not get any tax-payer support. They should be run as a business. If the business model fails a better one will replace it.
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Andy Capp
post Dec 21 2011, 04:36 PM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Dec 21 2011, 04:21 PM) *
No thanks. The Railways should not get any tax-payer support. They should be run as a business. If the business model fails a better one will replace it.

I wouldn't bet on it.
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scott
post Dec 21 2011, 05:13 PM
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I wouldnt mind paying more than the £51.50 i currently pay for a peak travelcard if they would guarantee me a seat!!
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On the edge
post Dec 21 2011, 05:19 PM
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QUOTE (scott @ Dec 21 2011, 05:13 PM) *
I wouldnt mind paying more than the £51.50 i currently pay for a peak travelcard if they would guarantee me a seat!!


Can't help agreeing! - Won't say anymore Biker!!


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Simon Kirby
post Dec 21 2011, 06:12 PM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Dec 21 2011, 04:21 PM) *
No thanks. The Railways should not get any tax-payer support. They should be run as a business. If the business model fails a better one will replace it.

Then the rail fare increase is entirely unrelated to public sector pensions.


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user23
post Dec 21 2011, 06:53 PM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Dec 21 2011, 04:21 PM) *
No thanks. The Railways should not get any tax-payer support. They should be run as a business. If the business model fails a better one will replace it.
What makes you so sure that there will always be someone willing to put private money into the railways?
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On the edge
post Dec 21 2011, 08:28 PM
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QUOTE (user23 @ Dec 21 2011, 06:53 PM) *
What makes you so sure that there will always be someone willing to put private money into the railways?


TDH mentioned business models meaning not necessarily rail...


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user23
post Dec 21 2011, 08:41 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Dec 21 2011, 08:28 PM) *
TDH mentioned business models meaning not necessarily rail...
He specifically mentioned rail
QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Dec 21 2011, 04:21 PM) *
No thanks. The Railways should not get any tax-payer support. They should be run as a business. If the business model fails a better one will replace it.
I'm just wondering how he's so confident that someone will always stump up the cash to keep the railways running.
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Biker1
post Dec 21 2011, 10:13 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Dec 21 2011, 07:19 PM) *
Can't help agreeing! - Won't say anymore Biker!!

No, feel free!
I am on your side with this one.
Guaranteeing a seat is unlikely but the current overcrowding on some peak trains is unacceptable for the money paid.
FGW is trying to do something about it but as soon as more capacity is gained it is taken up by the extra passengers whose numbers, for whatever reason, are still increasing.
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Biker1
post Dec 21 2011, 10:21 PM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Dec 21 2011, 06:21 PM) *
No thanks. The Railways should not get any tax-payer support. They should be run as a business. If the business model fails a better one will replace it.

The railways have not paid for themselves since WW2 and have relied on state help since then.
I don't know what the consequence would be of withdrawing it completely but I wonder if the transport infrastructure of this country could handle being devoid of it's rail system?
If not then surely state aid, and running as a public service, is the only way?
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