Immigration Crisis, getting what we deserve? Options

[Andy Capp]

Aren't you splitting hairs here? They will probably take over 800,000 at the end of the day.

No, just trying to correct possible missinformation. Some commentators doubt that the projection will happen. It could even be an attempt by Germany to 'embarrass' other countries into doing more which might mean they will not receive as many.

[GMR]

No, just trying to correct possible missinformation. Some commentators doubt that the projection will happen. It could even be an attempt by Germany to 'embarrass' other countries into doing more which might mean they will not receive as many.

I noticed that you use "possible" and "some," which actually doesn't really mean anything. I've read a lot on this and it seems it all depends on what you read and what you watch. On that, it could mean you could be right, or Petra could be right. Nevertheless, the way governments work, by subterfuge and disinformation, I wouldn't be surprised that Petra was right. I think anybody would be a fool to trust the government at face value.

I now read that the Government will take so many thousands. I have no doubt that whatever they take it will be criticised for not being enough. This will encourage those watching from afar that it is worth the risk for a better life. If I was in their shoes I would be encouraged to take the risk for a better life.

[Andy Capp]

I noticed that you use "possible" and "some," which actually doesn't really mean anything. I've read a lot on this and it seems it all depends on what you read and what you watch. On that, it could mean you could be right, or Petra could be right. Nevertheless, the way governments work, by subterfuge and disinformation, I wouldn't be surprised that Petra was right. I think anybody would be a fool to trust the government at face value.

I now read that the Government will take so many thousands. I have no doubt that whatever they take it will be criticised for not being enough. This will encourage those watching from afar that it is worth the risk for a better life. If I was in their shoes I would be encouraged to take the risk for a better life.

That is the rub: "No good deed goes unpunished."

Two dead boys are washed-up on the beach in front of the glare of the media, so now there's an imperative to home hundreds of thousands of immigrants. It is a pity that the media weren't there on the street to whiteness the death and destruction when the coalition performed 'Shock and Awe' on Iraq to the same effect.

The western world have taken the 'piece' for too long; we are now getting what we deserve.

[je suis Charlie]

That is the rub: "No good deed goes unpunished."

Two dead boys are washed-up in the beach in front of the glare of the media, now there's an imperative to home hundreds of thousands of immigrants. It is a pity that the media weren't there on the street to whiteness the death and destruction when the coalition performed 'Shock and Awe' on Iraq to the same effect.

The western world have taken the 'piece' for too long, we are now getting what we deserve.

And if I loaded my family into a leaky unseaworthy boat and tried to sail across the channel losing said family in the process, I wonder how much sympathy I would garner? Or would the authorities and the public turn on me?

[Andy Capp]

I appreciate fully that I am writing from a position of comfort and privilege, but I can't help thinking that our government are in effect 'giving in to terrorists' and hostage to a media that are distorting the picture.

[On the edge]

...and so yet again Orwell got it right in 1984. We are conditioned by the media. Easy isn't it.

[GMR]

And if I loaded my family into a leaky unseaworthy boat and tried to sail across the channel losing said family in the process, I wonder how much sympathy I would garner? Or would the authorities and the public turn on me?

They would turn on you because they would think - rightly - what idiot would put their family in danger when they didn't have to. Compared to somebody fleeing from a war-torn country. In fact I would go as far as seeing you put into jail.

[Andy Capp]

They would turn on you because they would think - rightly - what idiot would put their family in danger when they didn't have to. Compared to somebody fleeing from a war-torn country. In fact I would go as far as seeing you put into jail.

Do you know from what country the family set-off from?

[GMR]

I appreciate fully that I am writing from a position of comfort and privilege, but I can't help thinking that our government are in effect 'giving in to terrorists' and hostage to a media that are distorting the picture.

And what about the Jews in the 30s? We and other nations took them when the Nazi's were on the march. Maybe we shouldn't have; after all, didn't we and the world give into Nazi terrorism? Maybe we should have let the Jews be gassed to prove that we won't be intimidated by such Nazi terrorism. And yes, you are writing from your comforts and privileges. I wonder what your attitude would have been if you had been a Jew in the 30s or one of the refugees today? Would you be shouting "don't give into the terrorist ********, show your strengths and let us die; women and children".

[GMR]

Do you know from what country the family set-off from?

According to the press it was a war torn country. Does that help?

[Andy Capp]

According to the press it was a war torn country. Does that help?

Can you send me a link to where you read that as that isn't what I have read.

[Andy Capp]

And what about the Jews in the 30s? We and other nations took them when the Nazi's were on the march. Maybe we shouldn't have; after all, didn't we and the world give into Nazi terrorism? Maybe we should have let the Jews be gassed to prove that we won't be intimidated by such Nazi terrorism. And yes, you are writing from your comforts and privileges. I wonder what your attitude would have been if you had been a Jew in the 30s or one of the refugees today? Would you be shouting "don't give into the terrorist ********, show your strengths and let us die; women and children".

One big strawman twaddle of a post.

[GMR]

Can you send me a link to where you read that as that isn't what I have read.

I would love to, but I heard it on the news. Actually, I also read it, but not sure where. No doubt it will surface again or you could put key pointers in the search engine and hopefully it will pop up. Whether what I read it true or not, or what you read it true or not I am sure the truth can be easily found on the internet.

By the way; what did you read?

[GMR]

One big strawman twaddle of a post.

Of course it is to you, as I challenged your comments.




If you read back to what you wrote:

I appreciate fully that I am writing from a position of comfort and privilege, but I can't help thinking that our government are in effect 'giving in to terrorists' and hostage to a media that are distorting the picture.

My twaddle was in reply to your twaddle.

[Andy Capp]

I would love to, but I heard it on the news. Actually, I also read it, but not sure where. No doubt it will surface again or you could put key pointers in the search engine and hopefully it will pop up. Whether what I read it true or not, or what you read it true or not I am sure the truth can be easily found on the internet.

By the way; what did you read?

I know where to find it, it is just you made an emphatic statement that was contrary to what I understood, so I wanted to check; however, I believe they set-off from Turkey which I also believe isn't war-torn.

[GMR]

I know where to find it, it is just you made an emphatic statement that was contrary to what I understood, so I wanted to check; however, I believe they the set-off from Turkey which I also believe isn't war-torn.

There are many refugees who fled to Turkey from war-torn countries. And to be honest they are not that well treated in Turkey (according to some reports).

Also; prospects are a lot better and healthier in Europe than the middle East and with Germany offering to take refugees and Tourist migrants (without checking) then it is well worth the risks. Turkey doesn't offer free health service or such amenities as Europe does.

[Andy Capp]

There are many refugees who fled to Turkey from war-torn countries. And to be honest they are not that well treated in Turkey (according to some reports).

Also; prospects are a lot better and healthier in Europe than the middle East and with Germany offering to take refugees and Tourist migrants (without checking) then it is well worth the risks. Turkey doesn't offer free health service or such amenities as Europe does.

So they risked their lives fleeing from (presumably) poverty; Turkey, after all, have taken the lions share of the fleeing Syrians.

The impression the media are showing is that a of something like Dunkirk, but what it seem to be closer to is a famine relief effort.

My point is simply that to offer sanctuary to people considering putting their lives in danger is akin to negotiating a settlement with hostage takers, but of course, on a much larger scale

[GMR]

So they risked their lives fleeing from (presumably) poverty; Turkey, after all, have taken the lions share of the fleeing Syrians.

I would say they are fleeing to better prospects. Also; those that are in Turkey are, as far as I know, in camps. They would be offered a better future in Europe, I am sure you'll agree with that?

The impression the media are showing is that a of something like Dunkirk, but what it seem to be closer to is a famine relief effort.

Maybe six of one, half a dozen of the other?

[Andy Capp]

I would say they are fleeing to better prospects. Also; those that are in Turkey are, as far as I know, in camps. They would be offered a better future in Europe, I am sure you'll agree with that?

Agreed, but that is different than your original scathing post in reply to je suis Charlie's post. Therefore, should people risk the life of their family for a better life? And should we step in if people do? And if we do, what is the most effect way to do that?

Maybe six of one, half a dozen of the other?

Perhaps, but it seems to be easier to jump on the band wagon emblazoned with 'we need to save people from death and persecution in a war torn country' than one that has 'we are fed-up with being skint - give us better food and a better home'.

People complained about the foreign aid budget and wondered why we do it; that is a fair point, but perhaps the problem was that is was nowhere near enough and what there was wasn't spent on the right things.

[On the edge]

GMR is quite right, there is little real difference between someone fleeing from a Country because the regime is repressive or someone fleeing because they want to escape poverty. We've generally rushed into conflicts, pressured by the Americans with little if any thought about what happens after. We pump out millions in 'aid' with little knowledge or understanding about how it's spent. Our and the EU economic system 'market forces' does demand free movement of labour. And yes, even without what's happening now, that does mean cheapest possible. If we want some degree of population stability, we really need to focus on bringing those places from which people are fleeing up to an acceptable civilised standard. That does mean regime change, that does mean policing and that does mean aid us delivered in terms of commerce not arms. Long term possibly BUT we could start right now. Many Countries have national service, why not us? Potentially in the form of a civilian service corps - the draftees not taking arms, but applied to improving infrastructures. This would give useful work to those attempting to improve their lives under a compassionate government.