Papal visit Options

[DrPepper]

Surprisingly, my understanding is that 'faith' is a 'growth market'.

Yes, and? Things come, things go - take the ancient Egyptians and their many "Gods" who are now all but dismissed after being pretty much the only believe back then.

So in another two thousand years anything could happen - not that we need to worry to much about it!

[GMR]

Surprisingly, my understanding is that 'faith' is a 'growth market'.

P.T.Barnum said "There is a sucker born every minute."

[Darren]

It's disputed that Barnum actually said that. It was more likely to be "There's a customer born every minute".

It is attributed to a rival who said it in an attempt to discredit him.

*Today's useless fact was brought you by the letters P. T and B*

[DrPepper]

It's disputed that Barnum actually said that. It was more likely to be "There's a customer born every minute".

It is attributed to a rival who said it in an attempt to discredit him.

*Today's useless fact was brought you by the letters P. T and B*

I thought GMR said (well typed) it

[Iommi]

Yes, and?

Yes and; what? I posted a comment, this is what this forum is for.

Things come, things go - take the ancient Egyptians and their many "Gods" who are now all but dismissed after being pretty much the only believe back then.

Yes, and replaced by another belief system...it would seem.

So in another two thousand years anything could happen - not that we need to worry to much about it!

Who's worried, I'm just surprised that in an age of scientific enlightenment, that faith systems are still overwhelmingly popular, if what I have read is true.

It suggests there is more to this than simple belief in God(s), etc.

As for the 'one born every minute' related quote; that is an ignorant thing to say, bordering on arrogant when attributed to this discussion (although I'd like to think it was meant tongue in cheek). Watching bits of the Papal visit, I heard myself thinking the same thing, then I had to ask myself: who am I to judge!

[DrPepper]

Yes, and replaced by another belief system...it would seem.

Yep, that was exactly my point

[Iommi]

Yep, that was my exactly my point

Yes, in principle, I'm with you in all this religion stuff, but I accept that there must be other factors involved that I am ignorant of.

[Simon Kirby]

It suggests there is more to this than simple belief in God(s), etc.

As for the 'one born every minute' related quote; that is just an ignorant thing to say, bordering on arrogant when attributed to this discussion. Watching bits of the Papal visit, I heard myself thinking the same thing, then I had to ask myself: who am I to judge!

Yes, I've been challenged by this in the same way. I felt indignant that the pope should be complaining about agressive atheism, and I still think he'd do well to wind his neck in, but I'm appalled at the arrogance of Dawkins riding Science to attack religion, not least because of the obvious problem that science is entirely neutral on issues of faith, spirituality, and morality, though to be fair it would help if religion didn't try and peddle myth and magic as literal fact. We're familiar enough with the atrocities committed in the name of religion, but it was scientists, mathematicians, and engineers that enthusiastically enabled it, and it's difficult to escape that opposition was often inspired by a religious conviction, the quakers for just one example.

Don't get me wrong, there's definitely a place for ridiculing religion, be it Python, flying spaghetti monster, or Father Ted, but a crusade is just arrogant.

[Andy1]

but it was scientists, mathematicians, and engineers that enthusiastically enabled it, and it's difficult to escape that opposition was often inspired by a religious conviction, the quakers for just one example.

[/quote]

Enthusiastically, some yes but also some would have had a gun to thier head

[Darren]

If the Church was to be believed, the earth is at the centre of the universe and our sun orbits the earth, which is of course flat and created along with everything on it a mere 4-5 thousand years ago.

[DrPepper]

If the Church was to be believed, the earth is at the centre of the universe and our sun orbits the earth, which is of course flat and created along with everything on it a mere 4-5 thousand years ago.

Can't see a problem with that myself, in fact it's brilliant - at this rate of progress we all be living on other planets or evolved (well some of us at least) beyond all recognition by the year 2030

[dannyboy]

If the Church was to be believed, the earth is at the centre of the universe and our sun orbits the earth, which is of course flat and created along with everything on it a mere 4-5 thousand years ago.

The Church don't hold these beliefs now.

[Darren]

Good job too, otherwise I'd be burned at the stake as a heretic.

[GMR]

It's disputed that Barnum actually said that. It was more likely to be "There's a customer born every minute".

It is attributed to a rival who said it in an attempt to discredit him.

*Today's useless fact was brought you by the letters P. T and B*

I have read that as I am a fan of his, but as you said, it is disputed. We may never know.

[GMR]

Yes, in principle, I'm with you in all this religion stuff, but I accept that there must be other factors involved that I am ignorant of.

Isn't that the greatest power the church has over us; 'ignorant of'. Because God can't be proven (how do you prove a negive?) then people will always clutch at straws.

[Iommi]

Isn't that the greatest power the church has over us; 'ignorant of'. Because God can't be proven (how do you prove a negive?) then people will always clutch at straws.

What I mean is: there is more to having faith than simply considering the existence of God(s). It seems to be in our DNA. There must be a reason why nature made us be like it, despite us being rational creatures.

[GMR]

What I mean is: there is more to having faith than simply considering the existence of God(s). It seems to be in our DNA. There must be a reason why nature made us be like it, despite us being rational creatures.

There has been many debates/ philosophical discussions about DNA and what we inherit; what is instinctive and I do feel there is something in that. Even - probably - the answer why we believe or have faith; maybe it is a protective/ survival thing. But that doesn't mean that it is connected to a God or something like that.

One of the arguments, and as I pointed out above, is that we inherited survival traits; and one of them could be to be part of the collective institution; i.e. politics, religious, work related etc. It is better to be on the inside p*ss out, than being on the outside p*ssing in.

[Iommi]

There has been many debates/ philosophical discussions about DNA and what we inherit; what is instinctive and I do feel there is something in that. Even - probably - the answer why we believe or have faith; maybe it is a protective/ survival thing. But that doesn't mean that it is connected to a God or something like that.

I agree.

One of the arguments, and as I pointed out above, is that we inherited survival traits; and one of them could be to be part of the collective institution; i.e. politics, religious, work related etc. It is better to be on the inside p*ss out, than being on the outside p*ssing in.

It would suggest then, that 'no God' belief is rather unusual in us as humans. It is either there to make us better as a genus, to protect us and help us survive; or 'non-belief' could be a threat to our own survival.

[GMR]

It would suggest then, that 'no God' belief is rather unusual in us as humans. It is either there to make us better as a genus, to protect us and help us survive; or 'non-belief' could be a threat to our own survival.

You make some good points; and all possibilities. But since the early days man has advanced/ and evolved and that protective 'shell' is no longer needed. Nevertheless, you are not going to shrug off thousands (if not millions) of years of evolution (psychological evolution) over night. I can see a time when clinging to such believes/ mythologies will end up diminishing over time. Unless, of course, that a world phenomena grips us; something like Muhammad or Jesus or Buddha (could anybody ever tell the difference between stork and Buddha?) coming back and confronting us.

[Iommi]

I'm slightly torn here between two philosophies: 'Knowledge Dispels Fear' and 'Ignorance is bliss'... which is it?