Papal visit Options

[Darren]

How is that good news? With the lack of religion and spiritual guidance comes a lack of basic morals and decency. We now have a society that worships prostitutes, thinks cheating is par for the course and drugs are readily accepted. Teenage pregnancy is through the roof as is crime, and the ideals of celebrity at any cost are what our children aspire to. Whilst religion is not without fault, it gives people a sense of belonging, wellbeing and good moral guidance for families and individuals.

Interesting you mention teenage pregnancy, given the Vatican's view on contraception.

In Benedict XVI we have someone who publicly stated that condoms actually increase the spread of HIV/AIDS, contrary to what all other studies (and common sense) show.

Of course the Catholic Church have good reason is discourage any form of contraception. Like any religion or god, they need follower now, and in the future otherwise they will cease to exist (and arguably, so will their god). To make sure of this, it is held that using any form of contraception is a mortal sin and the punishment for such a sin is eternal damnation. That's a pretty big stick to threaten someone with.

[GMR]

Are they?? Care to back this wild claim up before we go any further?

'Wild claim'? Are you telling me that not a single drug dealer or prostitute is religious? Can you back this wild claim up? But we can put that to one side if you like; what about the IRA? Or are you suggesting that this is also a wild claim? Many of the Nazi's were religious and devoted catholics? What about the Crusaders who did it in the name of religion? They didn't just kill their enemies but also butchered them. And I can go on if you like; where were their morals and decency towards their enemies? We learn decency and morals from decent people and from ourselves, not from some religious fanatic who has an axe to grind.

[GMR]

Pay people who can kick a ball a fortune
Let half the World starve
Sell our industrial base to our competitors
Think British TV is the best
etc. etc.

No, we are still sheep, its just a different dog.

The sheep are the followers. Not only to the things you pointed out above, but also religious artifacts and people.

[Strafin]

'Wild claim'? Are you telling me that not a single drug dealer or prostitute is religious?

No, but that is not what you said. You said most are, which could well be true - I don't know but to me it seems unlikely.

[GMR]

No, but that is not what you said. You said most are, which could well be true - I don't know but to me it seems unlikely.

You are playing semantics here; you get my point. You were saying that we needed religion for decency and morals and I am saying we don't. Some of the most decent people are atheist, some of the nastiest people in the world belong to religious groups.

[JeffG]

You are playing semantics here

How is he playing semantics, when you said two totally different things?

[Iommi]

That is rubbish; I am not religious nor are my kids; be we/ they have morals and are decent and respect others.

Except when it is a point of view you don't share?

[GMR]

How is he playing semantics, when you said two totally different things?

Because he was trying to narrow the debate to one specific thing rather than look at the bigger picture; i.e. is religion good for our morals etc?

[GMR]

Except when it is a point of view you don't share?

And what has that got to do with morals and decency by the church? Disagreeing is healthy.

[Iommi]

And what has that got to do with morals and decency by the church? Disagreeing is healthy.

You argued that you didn't need religion to teach you how to be respectful. It is just regrettable that your post opened with "That is rubbish". In my view, that is rather disrespectful and ill-mannered way to reply. Indeed, I don't think what Strafin was saying is rubbish, although I agree with you as well; albeit I think you are arguing the case in a rather ham-fisted way.

[GMR]

You argued that you didn't need religion to teach you how to be respectful. It is just regrettable that your post opened with "That is rubbish". In my view, that is rather disrespectful and ill-mannered way to reply. Indeed, I don't think what Strafin was saying is rubbish, although I agree with you as well; albeit I think you are arguing the case in a rather ham-fisted way.

I agree that I shouldn't have said 'rubbish' but I disagree that I argued it in a ham fisted way (that is just your interpretation). Morals and decency are taught by decent people; whatever they believe. People shouldn't think that you need religion to create a better and/ or moral society. That comes from within; whatever ones beliefs or not.

[Strafin]

It is my opinion that religion provides for a lot of people, a moral compass and spiritual guidance in times of difficulty. I know that it is not for everyone, I know that it is not necessarily true what people believe. However I do notice that standards of social grace in this country are fast declining, and if you want to draw a parralell you could easily lump these two thoughts together. Not everyone is strong all the time, we all face temptation in the best and worst of times. If you are in a bad place with no family or friends around you sometimes looking for something else is the only way to try and stop making bad decisions.

[GMR]

It is my opinion that religion provides for a lot of people, a moral compass and spiritual guidance in times of difficulty.

I totally agree with you. People do find a moral compass and spiritual guidance in religion. In fact people find those things in all sorts of different things. So I wouldn't argue there. But the question is would they become less moral or decent if they never had religion to clutch to? I don't think so. Yes, they might find their existence emptier without religion in their lives, but not less moral or decent.

I know that it is not for everyone, I know that it is not necessarily true what people believe. However I do notice that standards of social grace in this country are fast declining, and if you want to draw a parralell you could easily lump these two thoughts together. Not everyone is strong all the time, we all face temptation in the best and worst of times. If you are in a bad place with no family or friends around you sometimes looking for something else is the only way to try and stop making bad decisions.

I also agree with you about standards have dropped, but a lot of those people are still religious or believe in God. And I think it is a poor excuse to say I haven't got god in my life so that is why I am a nasty piece of work. What do people say when they do have religion in their lives and still do bad things? "It was god that made me do it?" We all must take responsibility for our actions and not blame it on convenient things.

[Simon Kirby]

So what is Christian morality? Be holy? Actually that's more of a Jewish idea. The Christian version is that it really doesn't matter what you get up to as long as you say sorry. That just seems rather unsatisfactory. And you don't have to get right with your victims either like you had to previously, Christians just have to say sorry to Himself. That lack of basic accountability right at the heart of Christianity is very unsatisfactory.

Actually it's difficult to get at what Jesus was about because there's little left once you strip away the preposterous magical nonsense. In any event Christianity was largely fashioned by the early church, and that mostly by Paul, not Peter, and frankly I don't agree with his morality at all. And pretty soon it wasn't about redemption as much as it was about power.

That said I do feel that the church in England has for 1500 years been the glue that holds society together and the demise of the church has left society rather too losely bound. But I don't agree that religion is necessary for a moral society, and I particularly don't like the pope's flavour of morality.

[Iommi]

So what is Christian morality? Be holy? Actually that's more of a Jewish idea. The Christian version is that it really doesn't matter what you get up to as long as you say sorry. That just seems rather unsatisfactory. And you don't have to get right with your victims either like you had to previously, Christians just have to say sorry to Himself. That lack of basic accountability right at the heart of Christianity is very unsatisfactory.

It would be, but I have to say I don't agree with you. It is Christian to say you are sorry, but it must be meant. It is also Christian to behave in a number of other ways as well: like turning the other cheek, and how to treat your enemies as friends, he who is without sin cast the first stone, etc...

Actually it's difficult to get at what Jesus was about because there's little left once you strip away the preposterous magical nonsense.

It might be preposterous if you take the events literally, but not so if you take them metaphorically, but let's look at some of the 'non-magic'

To paraphrase a few quotes from Jesus...

"Greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world."

"What shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul."

"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

“So don’t worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring its own worries."

I see this as a reasonable basis from which to form a community and I'm sure Jesus's attitude to the money lenders in a house of worship chimes a few bells with today!

That said I do feel that the church in England has for 1500 years been the glue that holds society together and the demise of the church has left society rather too loosely bound. But I don't agree that religion is necessary for a moral society, and I particularly don't like the pope's flavour of morality.

I agree, but I am unsure of how Christian some of the motives are surrounding many Churches.

[JeffG]

I see that right now, on the BBC News website, under Most Popular Watched/Listened, no. 9 is "Pope's visit to the UK: Live coverage". Excuse me? A day after he flew back to the Vatican?

[Simon Kirby]

It might be preposterous if you take the events literally, but not so if you take them metaphorically, but let's look at some of the 'non-magic'

To paraphrase a few quotes from Jesus...

"Greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world."

"What shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul."

"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

“So don’t worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring its own worries."

I see this as a reasonable basis from which to form a community and I'm sure Jesus's attitude to the money lenders in a house of worship chimes a few bells with today!

Other than the Golden Rule (which is hardly uniquely Christian) these aren't much of a foundation. There are good reasons not to be avaricious, but artificially constructing the notion of a supernatural soul just to hold it ransom to your good behaviour on pain of eternal damnation is very grubby. It's not that Christianity doesn't have some good ideas, but I don't agree that religion is the only source of morality. Well, actually I think it's a bit more involved than that because you can't ignore the fact that religion of some sort or another appears to have been practiced since we came down from the trees so while I find the notion of a supernatural deity unacceptable, I kind of feel that myth and ritual have an important role in society, like easops fables, or for that matter Watership Down.

[Iommi]

Other than the Golden Rule (which is hardly uniquely Christian) these aren't much of a foundation. There are good reasons not to be avaricious, but artificially constructing the notion of a supernatural soul just to hold it ransom to your good behaviour on pain of eternal damnation is very grubby.

That tends to be Old Testament, or in other words, a kind of pre-Jesus. The Old Testament tends to say love God or be damned, but the New Testament tends to be more: love God and see all the good it can do you and your fellow man.

It's not that Christianity doesn't have some good ideas, but I don't agree that religion is the only source of morality.

I'm not sure that anyone is saying that, but in any case: morality comes from Man and religion is an example of its implementation.

Well, actually I think it's a bit more involved than that because you can't ignore the fact that religion of some sort or another appears to have been practiced since we came down from the trees so while I find the notion of a supernatural deity unacceptable, I kind of feel that myth and ritual have an important role in society, like easops fables, or for that matter Watership Down.

That is kind of how I feel about it. Although I have to say you are starting to send out mixed messages.

[DrPepper]

Just a thought, the bible is a very good read if you treat it as a fantasy novel. Maybe in another two thousand years the human race may just refer to Harry Potter or Star Wars in the same way, they both contain very similar elements i.e magic, myths and a certain code of conduct, believe and a "supreme" being.

Or with any luck people who have these faiths will stop believing in fairy tales and realise we are a very small people, on a very small planet in a very large universe.

[Iommi]

Surprisingly, my understanding is that 'faith' is a 'growth market'.