Sainsburys; they are out to get you. Options

[Hugh Saskin]

Why not impound the offending car and auction it off for charity - now that really would be fun

[Bob27]

The posts here are somewhat concerning.

Let's start at the beginning.




Part 1 - on the ground.

Bays on private land have no legal definition or status. Likewise double yellow lines etc.

Anybody can park in a disabled bay. Anybody can park in a 'parent and child' space (or whatever you want to call it - there are no rules whatsoever). The lines on the ground are mere graffiti.

Now obviously, the bays are meant for certain people and you'd have to be very inconsiderate and antisocial to abuse these bays. But legally, there is nothing Sainsburys or Euro Car Parks can do if you 'abuse' the facilities.

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Part 2 - the 'fines':

Private companies have no power in law to fine anyone. This was established in the early 1900s. All private companies can do is recoup any losses they might have suffered e.g if you terminate your BT contract early you have to pay off the rest of the contract. They cannot charge a cancellation fee, as that would be deemed a penalty.

Now what makes Euro Car Parks different? Absolutely nothing. They, and all these parking companies, have no powers whatsoever over any other company, be it BT or Joe Bloggs Plumbers.

Tickets handed out by Euro are nothing but unenforceable invoices for alleged breach of contract. Even if a contract was in place, only the driver would be party to it and Euro would have to prove any losses. You parking in a child bay in a free car park costs them £0. If you were in a pay and display car park and you didn't pay a pound, that's all they'd be entitled to. 'Terms and Conditions' stating 'if you do x, you agree pay £60' are complete hogwash.

These unenforceable invoices are usually called 'Parking Charge Notices' (or in Asda's case the shockingly unlawful and fraudulent 'Civil Penalty Notice'). Councils legitimately give out Penalty Charge Notices (PCNs), which are backed by legislation, but these scam companies love to call their invoices anything where they can use the letters PCN.

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Part 3 - the scam

So what happens if you receive one of these invoices? Step 1 is the company will buy the address of the owner from the DVLA using your reg number for £2.50. The government will sell any car owner's address to virtually anyone who asks for it and make a handy £6m a year from it.

Next come the threatening letters demanding payment. Small problem is that only the driver at the time can be party to any alleged contract and they only have the keeper's address. Luckily for them it doesn't matter because this is a

*****MAIL SCAM*******

Parking companies have no plans to take small claims court action because they will lose and would make peanuts even if hel did freeze over and they won. Much cheaper to send out 100 letters and sit back as 50 people pay up, no questions asked. Another 20 may pay after being pestered and the remaining 30 (the wise owls) will be given up on.

So, if you get one of these scam tickets from Euro Car Park, NCP, Parking Eye, whoever:

• do not pay
• do not contact them (they want you to contact them and fall for their fake 'appeals procedure' so they weigh you up and pester you with letters for longer as a 'hooked fish')
• ignore their hollow threats, lies and phoney threats of court
• same applies from their 'debt' collectors (they are ordinary private companies with no powers who merely spend their days writing threatening letters. They are NOT bailiffs).
• ignore any threats about credit or CCJs (to gain a CCJ you need to be taken to court AND lose AND still refuse to pay with 28 days. This is a mail scam that relies on peoples' ignorance of court)
• they will give up and go away

Practically, if you get an unenforceable invoice from Euro Car Parks, expect a couple of letters from them, a couple from Brinx Debt Collectors (owned by Euro coincidentally) and then some from Control Account. Then they give up.

Finally, fantastic journalism from Newbury Today - they are NOT fines.



Sorry GMR, just to pick up on your post:

Sainsbury's planned to slap a £50 parking fine on drivers for abusing their parking spaces; i.e. parking in disabled places.

Uniformed wardens will be fixing their eyes on you and if one wrong move they will have you over a barrel and banged to rights.

Not a fine. There are no wardens, just Euro Car Parks monkey in high vis jackets and finally you are not banged to rights in the slightest.

See how easy people are scammed? :-)

[Biker1]

Thanks for that Bob - a wealth of information.
Not sure I will deliberately put it to the test though!

Just to sum up and clarify.

Are you saying that ANY private car park (That is not owned by the local council) cannot charge you a penalty for parking against their rules?

Begs the question what about clampers?

Anyway thanks again.

[Hugh Saskin]

you'd have to be very inconsiderate and antisocial to abuse these bays.

Says it all in a sentence - but presume all these clampers earning a fine living at railway stations and the like are also operating illegally?.

[J C]

Begs the question what about clampers?

Would clamping and towing be allowed on private land as it is just that and the owner reserves the right to remove vehicles at their whim?

Also another question specifically about Sainsburys - I thought that West Berks council stipulated that they had to provide 2 hours free parking? If West Berks can make this stipulation does this not make it kind of a council regulated car park?

[CBW137Y]

While we're on the subject... just HOW MANY disabled drivers ARE there in Newbury??! Tescos car park seems to have 100s set aside for their use... I'd understand if this was Bournemouth, or somewhere where the elderly and infirm go to see out the last of their days before falling off the twig, but this is leafy Berkshire! It's ridiculous...!

Just food for thought.....be careful how you mentally define 'disabled'. My ex was (at the time I refer to) in his mid-twenties, suffering from arthritis, and couldn't walk the length of Northbrook Street. He could hardly manage half that distance, if truth be known. Disabled badges aren't just given out to people in wheelchairs, or the over 70s.

Tis all.

[Darren]

Disabled would be defined as holding a Blue Badge.

As you are parking on private land, the landowner may impose any conditions they see fit. If that includes placing a penalty charge for a vehicle parking in a designated disabled space and not displaying a valid Blue Badge, then so be it.

The are also at liberty to clamp and remove offending vehicles.

The landowner can also serve you notice not to enter the property again if a persistent offender. As such they would be a trespasser and can be removed from the property. The law allows a landowner or their agent to use 'reasonable force' to remove a trespasser if they refuse to leave after being so required. Thr trespasser must be given a reasonable amount of time to remove themselves.

[CBW137Y]

Disabled would be defined as holding a Blue Badge.

As you are parking on private land, the landowner may impose any conditions they see fit. If that includes placing a penalty charge for a vehicle parking in a designated disabled space and not displaying a valid Blue Badge, then so be it.

The are also at liberty to clamp and remove offending vehicles.

The landowner can also serve you notice not to enter the property again if a persistent offender. As such they would be a trespasser and can be removed from the property. The law allows a landowner or their agent to use 'reasonable force' to remove a trespasser if they refuse to leave after being so required. Thr trespasser must be given a reasonable amount of time to remove themselves.

Am more than aware of the legislation - was merely making the point that the term disabled should not be a stereotype.

[Strafin]

As you are parking on private land, the landowner may impose any conditions they see fit.

That's simply not true, firstly it would be classed as private land with public access, secondly they still have to operate within the law. For example if they put a small sign up as you enter that says you can park here but we get to punch you in the face, it wouldn't be accepted. There is also the unfair contracts act which stops companies riding roughshot.

[Darren]

Private land is private land. You have either implied or express permission to be on it. In the case of a supermarket, you only have implied permission and that permission may have conditions on it. This is what allows nightclubs to have a sign up stating all persons entering are liable to search. Anyone refusing will be denied entry.

NCP manage private car parks, a condition of entry is that you must pay to use the car park, be it on entry or exit. If you fail to pay for what ever reason, that will become a civil debt and is collectable with a court order. The order will also include an award for costs, this is collectable too.

[Iommi]

This is all fine, but isn't what is being deputed, is it (in the OP)?

[Strafin]

Private land is private land. You have either implied or express permission to be on it. In the case of a supermarket, you only have implied permission and that permission may have conditions on it. This is what allows nightclubs to have a sign up stating all persons entering are liable to search. Anyone refusing will be denied entry.

NCP manage private car parks, a condition of entry is that you must pay to use the car park, be it on entry or exit. If you fail to pay for what ever reason, that will become a civil debt and is collectable with a court order. The order will also include an award for costs, this is collectable too.

As previously mentioned, they would have to get a court order, which they won't because the contracts are not legally binding. Your comment privte land s private land is not tangeable to the law. Fenced off sealed off private land s one thing, land with public access is another. You still cannot drink drive in Sainsbury's car park but you could in your own field.

[Strafin]

This is all fine, but isn't what is being deputed, is it (in the OP)?

Great now the fun police have turned up!

[Darren]

If that's what you think, I'll not try to dissuade you.

Of course you could always go there, park in a disabled bay while not displaying a Blue Badge. When you get a ticket, ignore it and see what happens.

Please do keep us update.

[hamster]

When is a 'child' not a child? When it becomes a teenager at 13? What about 16? If I popped into Sainsburys with my child of 22 years of age, in law he's still my child. Interesting to see how robust the restriction is and if it would stand someone refusing to pay up and taking it to court!

Good point, I have stopped using the 'Parent and Child' my lad is nearly 6 - can I still park there do you think without getting looks from those with younger kids? I doubt it. Left to his own devices my lad (same with all that age) would swing the door wide open potentially knocking another car - I always make him wait and hold the door so he can get out without damaging the neighbouring car..in Parent and Child bays you don't have to worry about this.

[Darren]

Good point, I have stopped using the 'Parent and Child' my lad is nearly 6 - can I still park there do you think without getting looks from those with younger kids? I doubt it. Left to his own devices my lad (same with all that age) would swing the door wide open potentially knocking another car - I always make him wait and hold the door so he can get out without damaging the neighbouring car..in Parent and Child bays you don't have to worry about this.

It's not just children who seem to have problems with opening doors in normal spaces...

[Strafin]

Good point, I have stopped using the 'Parent and Child' my lad is nearly 6 - can I still park there do you think without getting looks from those with younger kids? I doubt it. Left to his own devices my lad (same with all that age) would swing the door wide open potentially knocking another car - I always make him wait and hold the door so he can get out without damaging the neighbouring car..in Parent and Child bays you don't have to worry about this.

So why not use the child locks, or better yet, control your children?

[hamster]

So why not use the child locks, or better yet, control your children?

Yes thats what I said, I make him wait so I can open the door for him. Why is your comment so goading? I was making a perfectly polite comment.
I know what its like, I got a massive great dink in the door of my 2 week old car. It was my first newcar and I was gutted. And this idiot women smcaked my door with hers when I was sat in my car!

[GMR]

So why not use the child locks, or better yet, control your children?

When I was a kid and also when I brought my kids up we/ they didn't have 'child locks' just discipline.

[Strafin]

I don't think my comment was goading, you wrote "now (with the P&C bays) I don't have to worry about it". Seems to me these days parents don't take responsibility for their kids, and your view reinforces that. I used to get a bit upset when the bays were all at the front of the store but now they are mixed in a bit better I don't feel penalised for being childless.