Biker1,

There is no need to apologise, remember I am a "bleeding hearted" liberal, but feel free to highlight a society where punitive action alone leads to one that is harmonious and one in which you would like to live?

Do I belief that the criminal justice system works as well as it could? No, but the answer is not the return of the stocks or something similar. We already have one of the highest prison populations so clearly 'locking em up' does not work

Unfortunately turning this problem around will take generations so Home Secretaries and others wishing to make a name for themselves in the short term will continue to promote populist solutions that seem to be based in vengeance rather than sense!

Now back to my break, where I am watching seals, canoeing and similar (I currently have a 3G signal but will soon lose it).

Ruwan Uduwerage-Perera
Newbury Town Council - Councillor for Victoria Ward & Deputy Leader

"Locking em up" doesn't work because the prison system as it is does not work.
It neither reforms nor punishes.

I would not categorise my suggested methods of reform as "vengeance" just a system where corrective action and punishment in it's proper form go together.
See my earlier post regarding what is usually referred to as "boot camps" but could / should be labelled with something more constructive.

The last thing we need is very fit highly motivated thugs! National Service (for instance) didn't stop the Krays becoming gangsters.

I have a similar problem - but I have decided that my fingers are dyslexic. For some reason I almost always type 'the the' when I mean to type 'to the' - I know it happens but I still keep on doing it.

Weird isn't it!

So then, we want to come down hard on offenders, particularly repeat ones, but we don't want prison because it doesn't work and is too soft, we don't want boot camps because if would make offenders too fit, we don't want pillories because that smells like vengeance, and community service isn't enforced. What do we want? Or perhaps we do have the criminal justice system we deserve, offenders just get a witty wigging from the bench and a nice chat with a social worker!

Yup, that sums it up. Welcome to liberal Britain.

Where locking them up DOES work is that whilst they are locked up, the rest of the law abiding society does not have to endure their criminality and strangely, they don't commit offences.

Ooooh naughty naughty! That is seen as retribution and totally wrong. Punishment is only meant to 'rehabilitate' the offender. Can't keep them in a University of Crime can we!

Frankly, given the number of academics looking at this whole area since the late 1949s, we haven't found any realistic alternative that actually works. And that's from someone who wasted a year doing a diploma in Criminology back in the late 60s.

'If you can't do the time, don't do the crime'....

That is all fine if you are a rational human being. It is thought that many inside are not the full quid.

One of the reasons this is subject to a lot of scientific study is because it is a complex subject.

Yes we can build more gaols, but how long should we lock people up and who should be locked up?

To me this is treating the symptom, not the cause, and as the saying goes: an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Yes, we would all cheer if we saw this car stamper gaoled for 5 years of hard labour, but after he is let out, just watch what he does, and with a lot more skill. These people have to eat, and if they cannot get that the 'right' way, they will seek alternative methods.

My feeling is that gaoling people in what would become a 'nut-house' will just turn people into nut jobs.

AndyC is that a logical fallacy?

You'd have to explain. I don't see it.

Is the rise in crime partially down to the reduction of people being held, as they would have been in the past, held in Mental Institutions?

Rise in crime? For years Home Secretaries have told us crime is reducing (now apparently based on stats provided by obedient Chief Constables)

I appreciate you're vehemence, but you're mistaken.

While any particular scrote is locked up you're right that the individual herself isn't free to offend, but because prison is neither a good deterrent to offending nor effective at rehabilitating offenders, total criminality is higher when compared to a more progressive regime.

Yes of course Crime is falling which is why despite giving out more non-custodial sentences/punishments we have an increase in the Prison population!

And politicians wonder why they are not trusted and people don't vote!

So what would be Simon?

Eugenics
Whole life imprisonment or death penalty for all imprisonable offences including drinking of alcohol and prescribed drug use.
Castration
Pervasive CCTV
Huge increase in Police numbers
Make everyone wealthy

Simon, I mean no offence but how can I possibly be wrong if I say that those who are locked up do not commit offences! They're locked up so how, at that time can they be committing offences?

Long term, I appreciate that it may not pay big dividends but please tell me the alternative because not much else seems to be effective!

You're right of course that if you lock someone up then while they're locked up they aren't committing an offence, but on the whole if you lock someone up they're more likely to go on and commit further offences than they would if they were given some other more progressive punishment such as community service. Prison just isn't very effective at rehabilitating offenders or discouraging offending. There is too little emphasis on rehabilitation, underlying mental health and social issues are not adequately supported, prisoners network and learn how to be more effective criminals, and the regime further alienates and disenfranchises people whose criminality can be rooted in social alienation and disenfranchisement.

In short, it's reactionary politicians responding to populist demands for Old-Testament justice that cause more harm than good. If those voices instead demanded social justice then the root cause of some criminality would be more effectively addressed.

Justice obviously demands that criminality be punished, but we spite ourselves if the punishment itself is the seat of yet further criminality.