The Case Against the Charter Market Options

[Andy Capp]

Only if you believe it to be true.

As already mentioned, the only time any one councillor has any power is when they have a casting vote. That is our democracy at work.

[Andy Capp]

I'm agnostic about the market, but I very rarely use it. If mine and others £3/4 keeps a few people in (council) jobs, I'm not bothered, although that isn't to say their effort couldn't be put to better use!

[user23]

As already mentioned, the only time any one councillor has any power is when they have a casting vote. That is our democracy at work.

This is very likely, given the current political makeup of the Town Council.

[Andy Capp]

This is very likely, given the current political makeup of the Town Council.

You might have power over an agenda (where there is political dead-lock), but you have no power to set it.

[Simon Kirby]

NTC have been trying to kill the market for years and nearly managed it when the resurfaced the market place with the so called cafe/bistro area to save having a vastly empty pedestrian area that can not be used for parking any more as its in a pedestrian area but does the Charter market only makes a loss on the say so of the been counters at NTC in that any administrator can put so many hours allegedly to charter market work when they are not necessarily doing charter market work

It would be a serious business if someone in the council was actively cooking the books to make it look like people were working on one service when they weren't. Whatever service you look at there is a bewilderingly high staff cost. The charter market could easily be run with half a man-day of council time per week because it's not like the council set the stalls out or anything, that's all done by the stall-holders and the market management company, so what the council find to occupy their time is difficult to guess, and for every hour of service staff time there's broadly the same amount of back-office administration staff time too loading the overheads.

There seems to be a reasonable possibility that with some imaginative commercial retail management that a market of one sort or another could thrive in Newbury and become an asset to the town, but that's never going to happen with the dead-hand of the council at the controls. If the council were to bug-out and leave the field free for some commercial enterprise to run the market free from interference then not only would it inject some new interest into the town centre, it would also save us a few quid on our council tax. Bonnet de douche, every one's a winner.

[Simon Kirby]

* double post *

[Simon Kirby]

You might have power over an agenda (where there is political dead-lock), but you have no power to set it.

You might possibly hope to exercise the casting vote on such weighty matters of state as the colour of the NTC grit bins.

However, as a democratically elected town councillor you would have a legitimate mandate and platform to criticise the council for keeping your ideas off the agenda, but any councillor not willing to toe the council establishment line should prepare themselves for the dirty tricks because the council does not like to be criticised.

[user23]

You might have power over an agenda (where there is political dead-lock), but you have no power to set it.

Stop making excuses. If one doesn't get off their bottom and actually stand up for what they believe in then they probably deserve what they get.

One would certainly have more 'power' if that's what they're after than from posting long whiney monologues on a little read Internet forum.

[Andy Capp]

Stop making excuses. If one doesn't get off their bottom and actually stand up for what they believe in then they probably deserve what they get.

One would certainly have more 'power' if that's what they're after than from posting long whiney monologues on a little read Internet forum.

I am sure that Simon has more power posting 'long whiney monologues on a little read Internet forum' than he would by standing for election, that is for sure. His posts make for some uncomfortable reading, for some. Simon also has a long tradition of standing up and working for what he believes, so for you to sit at home (or where ever you might post from) and suggest how he should do things is simply churlish.

Anyway, his post, which I find quite interesting despite not always agreeing with it, is a legitimate topic. You could always challenge it if you wish, rather than trying to deflect it in your customary and unhelpful manner.

[NWNREADER]

The market used to be a thriving event with traders coming from far and wide. The gathering in the Market Place has diminished significantly, but I notice some stalls are establishing in Bart St....
Why make the main market look smaller and dilute the customer gathering?
As for Simon's figures, has anyone sought any verification of them from the Council?
I don't say his figures are wrong, but neither do I know them to be right. His habit of adding window dressing with his terminology does not make the figures more likely to be correct..... But some may feel 'dared' to doubt them.... The income from the market is simple, the cost of the market seems masked with smoke and mirrors with overheads, plus admin cost, plus running cost. To me that is confusing.

Lastly, some residents may say the market is a feature worth paying for, as with the mayoral robes, the town hall etc.

[Simon Kirby]

The market used to be a thriving event with traders coming from far and wide. The gathering in the Market Place has diminished significantly, but I notice some stalls are establishing in Bart St....
Why make the main market look smaller and dilute the customer gathering?
As for Simon's figures, has anyone sought any verification of them from the Council?
I don't say his figures are wrong, but neither do I know them to be right. His habit of adding window dressing with his terminology does not make the figures more likely to be correct..... But some may feel 'dared' to doubt them.... The income from the market is simple, the cost of the market seems masked with smoke and mirrors with overheads, plus admin cost, plus running cost. To me that is confusing.

Lastly, some residents may say the market is a feature worth paying for, as with the mayoral robes, the town hall etc.

Asking the council for a press statement denouncing my "misinformation" as they like to call it won't help you find the truth. What we need is for someone from the council to stand up here and defend their position, but they won't come out of their bunker. It was for publishing the service accounts with the full costs and overheads exposed that I was declared to be a Vexatious Complainant - a humiliating and degrading experience as I stood their asking my question in a public council meeting. Apportion overheads in order to present a true unit cost is accounting 101 and standard commercial practice, but the council absolutely hate to see the overheads included, and they also hate seeing the full costs in their £tens of thousands rather then the palatable £10s per tax-payer.

You have as much access to the accounts as I have, so if you're looking for validation then go through them yourself.

[NWNREADER]

I am not a resident of the NTC fiefdom

[newres]

I am sure that Simon has more power posting 'long whiney monologues on a little read Internet forum' than he would by standing for election, that is for sure. His posts make for some uncomfortable reading, for some. Simon also has a long tradition of standing up and working for what he believes, so for you to sit at home (or where ever you might post from) and suggest how he should do things is simply churlish.

Anyway, his post, which I find quite interesting despite not always agreeing with it, is a legitimate topic. You could always challenge it if you wish, rather than trying to deflect it in your customary and unhelpful manner.

Hear, hear. Although I do think this is too personal for Simon.

[Simon Kirby]

Hear, hear. Although I do think this is too personal for Simon.

It is, and it gets in the way of the message and makes me easy bait for apologists. I would really like to see someone else challenging the council so I could take a rest from it.

There was a time that I wasn't so bothered that the council was unchallenged; I was aware of one councillor who was abusing their position to victimise someone they'd fallen out with and I could see how the council establishment closed ranks and allowed it to happen without demur, but it wasn't me getting bullied and perhaps I should have kept well out of it. But I involved myself and I experienced first hand how remorselessly vindictive this self-serving council is, and that unresolved violation has left me seething with indignation.

[On the edge]

Hear, hear. Although I do think this is too personal for Simon.

Was it too personal for Mrs Thatcher, or Mr Churchill, or Mr Attlee, who were all conviction politicians, arguably driven by a personal issue? Or would you rather have bland, vanilla ones who just want power for their own vanity?

[On the edge]

.......Lastly, some residents may say the market is a feature worth paying for, as with the mayoral robes, the town hall etc.

I'm sure they do, but are they willing to pay for this and then not complain about cuts to mental health budgets, failure to mend roads quickly, reductions in support for old people etc. etc.

[Bartholomew]

I was actively involved in the market a few years ago both as a stallholder and as part of the market committee. I watched as the numbers of customer and consequently the number of traders reduced until it was clear that there was no economic sense for me to continue with it.
So what happened? My view is that both NTC and WBC actively made the market unviable. With the market place initiative that drove away independent non food shops from the area and the rise in parking charges its obvious that the market is now unsustainable. When the market place refurbishment took place it was a major battle to get a decent location for the market and the original council intention was to move it to the parking area behind the museum. Only with a lot of effort was it put in Northbrook Street where the market revenues and number of stall holders increased significantly (as with all retail location is key). I see that now that Northbrook Street is now fully pedestrianised they councils are still refusing to move the market there.

Its clear to me that either the market needs to be revitalised, close or NTC need to move away away from managing it. Its not viable in its current form. I'm not sure of the provisons of the Charter for the market but I think it would be sad to lose a tradition that goes back several hundred years. Personally I believe that it could be commercially viable if managed in a different way and encouraged more diverse traders.

[Andy Capp]

The councils are either commercially inept, or they are deliberately trying to destroy the Market. Although I would imagine ebay and other on-line outlets have taken their toll on the Market too. It seems the Market's fortunes seem to fall when the councils decided to revamp the place. Not a good use of £800,000.00 of public money.

If Newbury want a sustainable Market, they will have to move it to the highstreet.

I have an idea... why not move the Market to the highstreet and turn the market Place into a short stay carpark!

[Simon Kirby]

I was actively involved in the market a few years ago both as a stallholder and as part of the market committee. I watched as the numbers of customer and consequently the number of traders reduced until it was clear that there was no economic sense for me to continue with it.
So what happened? My view is that both NTC and WBC actively made the market unviable. With the market place initiative that drove away independent non food shops from the area and the rise in parking charges its obvious that the market is now unsustainable. When the market place refurbishment took place it was a major battle to get a decent location for the market and the original council intention was to move it to the parking area behind the museum. Only with a lot of effort was it put in Northbrook Street where the market revenues and number of stall holders increased significantly (as with all retail location is key). I see that now that Northbrook Street is now fully pedestrianised they councils are still refusing to move the market there.

Its clear to me that either the market needs to be revitalised, close or NTC need to move away away from managing it. Its not viable in its current form. I'm not sure of the provisons of the Charter for the market but I think it would be sad to lose a tradition that goes back several hundred years. Personally I believe that it could be commercially viable if managed in a different way and encouraged more diverse traders.

So as a definite plan, are there any obvious problems with this:

1. Allow the market to go in Northbrook Street.
2. Advertise for interested parties to run the market.
3. The market receives no tax-payer support, and no council interference.

Getting permission from whoever for the market to go in Northbrook Street will be a challenge, but it's not sustainable in the market place, so give the permission-giver the alternative of Northbrook Street or nothing and use the leverage of the colour and interest that a thriving market would bring to the town to encourage the right decision.

As the tax-payer will benefit from having the market taken off NTC's hands it might appropriate to sweeten the handover with some financial support while the market re-established itself, but it should probably be financially independent in the end.

As BIDCo has some excellent retail management experience and has an over-arching brief to make the town centre as appealing as possible to shoppers it might well be worth approaching them to manage the transition from NTC to an independent commercial operator, which might conceivably be BIDCo itself.

[NWNREADER]

I'm sure they do, but are they willing to pay for this and then not complain about cuts to mental health budgets, failure to mend roads quickly, reductions in support for old people etc. etc.

As none of the above are funded by NTC I don't see the link.......