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> Corbyn, This is democracy!!!!
On the edge
post Sep 26 2016, 09:15 PM
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Sad, Newres, still on the everyone who disagrees with me must be thick line?


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je suis Charlie
post Sep 26 2016, 09:18 PM
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Is it cos wees all da swivel eyed loons like? laugh.gif
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Andy Capp
post Sep 26 2016, 09:22 PM
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QUOTE (newres @ Sep 26 2016, 09:59 PM) *
But it appealed to the base instinct often found that lurks behind "charity begins at home". It isn't a choice between the NHS and the EU, but to be blunt a lot of our population aren't bright enough to see that and aren't too fond of Johnny Foreigner either.

The bit I don't like is the: UKIP promised to divert the money; they didn't. They might be guilty of lying by omission, but on that it should be 'buyer beware'. The big lie could be whether we can actually Brexit sufficiently to make all this disruption worthwhile.
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Simon Kirby
post Sep 26 2016, 09:46 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Sep 26 2016, 09:38 PM) *
I have seen no bus advert stating UKIP would divert any money. I saw a proposal that should happen but that isn't the same thing. We weren't voting for a party, we were voting to stay or leave the EU.

You're right - the £350 million per week promise which was untrue was on the battle bus of the Vote Leave campaign which was a cross-party campaign group and not UKIP itself. Here's Nigel Farage denouncing the promise the day after polls closed.

QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Sep 26 2016, 09:38 PM) *
With Corbyn it is rumoured he was a closet Brexit and his apparent lacklustre support for Remain seemed to support this in some people's eyes.

Is this a witch hunt now? I don't think it's any secret that Corbyn is not a dyed-in-the-wool Europhile and I see no dishonesty in him reaching a considered but not particularly strongly held view that remaining in the EU was on the whole in the best interests of the people of Britain. Neither do I see the problem in his leadership of the Labour Party in the run-up to the referendum - if his considered view was that membership was on the whole just about preferable then he lead Labour honestly - don't forget there are plenty of Eurosceptics within Labour and the question of EU membership is pretty much orthogonal to Labour's socialist political values so it was never clear to me why Labour as a party needed to express a view one way or the other. If you have a gripe about the effectiveness of the remain campaign you need to take it up with Britain Stronger in Europe and the people who led that.


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Andy Capp
post Sep 26 2016, 09:56 PM
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I have no gripe. The blame for Brexit should be felt most by the EU. The decision to leave was made fairly easy by them.
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Simon Kirby
post Sep 26 2016, 10:13 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Sep 26 2016, 10:56 PM) *
I have no gripe. The blame for Brexit should be felt most by the EU. The decision to leave was made fairly easy by them.

GMR made the accusation that Corbyn was dishonest and I asked him to substantiate that and he cited Corbyn's leadership of Labour in the run-up to the referendum. I don't see any dishonesty in that leadership, so GMR's argument has rather bombed, but that's how we got here.


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blackdog
post Sep 27 2016, 08:48 AM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Sep 26 2016, 07:47 PM) *
Semantics? UKIP said very clearly in letters the size of a bus that they would divert the EU contribution to better fund the NHS, and that was knowingly false and dishonest. I have no idea what you think is dishonest about Corbyn taking the considered view that, on balance, remaining in the EU is a better choice for the nation than leaving. You very obviously don't agree with him, but that doesn't make his position dishonest.


If we're into semantics then it's only fair to point out that it was Vote Leave that painted the bus, not UKIP. It was Johnson and Gove who were using the bus, not Farage.

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newres
post Sep 27 2016, 11:27 AM
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QUOTE (blackdog @ Sep 27 2016, 09:48 AM) *
If we're into semantics then it's only fair to point out that it was Vote Leave that painted the bus, not UKIP. It was Johnson and Gove who were using the bus, not Farage.


Therefore giving the idea more credibility.
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Simon Kirby
post Sep 27 2016, 12:38 PM
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QUOTE (blackdog @ Sep 27 2016, 09:48 AM) *
If we're into semantics then it's only fair to point out that it was Vote Leave that painted the bus, not UKIP. It was Johnson and Gove who were using the bus, not Farage.


You're right, I was mistaken.


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GMR
post Sep 27 2016, 03:12 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Sep 26 2016, 07:34 PM) *
OK, we won't agree but what is the big fear you have of Jeremy Corbyn? That he might keep the Tories in power for 20 years can be no bad thing if you support them, or UKIP, or indeed the coalition LibDems, so what's the issue? The mantra that good opposition means good government is demonstrably untrue, so it can't be that; so again, why worry about a failure that will keep your opponent on the floor?





Putting it that way I can't really disagree with you, but it is sad that the Tories won't have an opposition.

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Andy Capp
post Sep 27 2016, 03:16 PM
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I think Governments eventually lose elections, rather than win them. I remember the tories were written off in the same way when Bliar got in.
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GMR
post Sep 27 2016, 03:17 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Sep 26 2016, 07:47 PM) *
No, really, I have no idea what you're point is.


Really?

QUOTE
If you have something to say then out with it. Yes, I'm sure there were seats available, but it was packed and it was a legitimate stunt to highlight the fact that too many trains are packed. Had the train been empty then it would indeed have been a dishonest representation, but there were other passengers sitting in corridors and they weren't pulling a stunt, it's just what you do on a packed train.


I am glad you agree it was a "stunt", but a stunt can be seen as a lie, seeing as he said it wasn't a stunt.




QUOTE
Semantics? UKIP said very clearly in letters the size of a bus that they would divert the EU contribution to better fund the NHS, and that was knowingly false and dishonest. I have no idea what you think is dishonest about Corbyn taking the considered view that, on balance, remaining in the EU is a better choice for the nation than leaving. You very obviously don't agree with him, but that doesn't make his position dishonest.


"They would divert...."? Really? The only person who can divert anything is the PM of this country. Anybody who knows anything about politics should now that, whether it be, Johnson, Gove or UKIP, they can't make any promises because they weren't in a position to do so.

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GMR
post Sep 27 2016, 03:18 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Sep 26 2016, 09:38 PM) *
I have seen no bus advert stating UKIP would divert any money. I saw a proposal that should happen but that isn't the same thing. We weren't voting for a party, we were voting to stay or leave the EU. With Corbyn it is rumoured he was a closet Brexit and his apparent lacklustre support for Remain seemed to support this in some people's eyes.





Good point.

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On the edge
post Sep 27 2016, 03:46 PM
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QUOTE (GMR @ Sep 27 2016, 04:12 PM) *
Putting it that way I can't really disagree with you, but it is sad that the Tories won't have an opposition.


I doubt if that will worry them, after all Tony Blair had no real opposition.


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Simon Kirby
post Sep 27 2016, 03:51 PM
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QUOTE (GMR @ Sep 27 2016, 04:17 PM) *
I am glad you agree it was a "stunt", but a stunt can be seen as a lie, seeing as he said it wasn't a stunt.

He could have said it was a gorilla riding a bicycle and you'd argue that it would depend what he meant by "bicycle". It was a legitimate protest at train overcrowding with no misrepresentation involved?

Do you want to have another go at justifying the smear that Corbyn is dishonest?


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GMR
post Sep 27 2016, 04:24 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Sep 27 2016, 04:46 PM) *
I doubt if that will worry them, after all Tony Blair had no real opposition.





Tony Blair had more opposition than May will get from Corbyn.

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GMR
post Sep 27 2016, 04:25 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Sep 27 2016, 04:51 PM) *
He could have said it was a gorilla riding a bicycle and you'd argue that it would depend what he meant by "bicycle". It was a legitimate protest at train overcrowding with no misrepresentation involved? Do you want to have another go at justifying the smear that Corbyn is dishonest?


I argued it the way it was.

But that isn't what he said; that it was a "legitimate protest". You are playing semantics.

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Simon Kirby
post Sep 27 2016, 04:52 PM
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QUOTE (GMR @ Sep 27 2016, 05:25 PM) *
I argued it the way it was.

But that isn't what he said; that it was a "legitimate protest". You are playing semantics.

It's not a matter of semantics, it's rhetoric, and you haven't made you point.


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GMR
post Sep 27 2016, 06:46 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Sep 27 2016, 05:52 PM) *
It's not a matter of semantics, it's rhetoric, and you haven't made you point.





I haven't made my point to you because that would put you in an awkward position if I had.

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Andy Capp
post Sep 27 2016, 07:25 PM
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QUOTE (GMR @ Sep 27 2016, 07:46 PM) *
I haven't made my point to you because that would put you in an awkward position if I had.

If you make your point, we won't tell; promise.
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