IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

4 Pages V   1 2 3 > »   
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Papal visit
TallDarkAndHands...
post Sep 17 2010, 08:20 AM
Post #1


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 4,316
Joined: 15-May 09
From: Newbury
Member No.: 60



I am not a religous man but recognise that other people have faith. Why oh why though do we have to have such incessant News coverage about his state visit?

I turned on the TV this morning and the press were outside his residence and what do we get.. 'yes I'm hearing it now... the pope is out of bed'. We'll have papal Loo cam next for petes sake... blink.gif
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ozzy
post Sep 17 2010, 09:12 AM
Post #2


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 84
Joined: 19-January 10
Member No.: 649



It's better than hearing some nonsense about an alleged footballer scandal!

It's mainly got a lot of attention because it is the first ever official visit to the UK.

Pope John Paul II did visit the UK in 1982 but that was a 'pastoral' visit. This is an official state visit.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
JeffG
post Sep 17 2010, 09:17 AM
Post #3


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 3,762
Joined: 14-May 09
Member No.: 56



QUOTE (Ozzy @ Sep 17 2010, 10:12 AM) *
This is an official state visit.

But it shouldn't be - that's what all the fuss is about. The Vatican is not a proper state.

See Stephen Fry: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11316476

The coverage of this visit is excessive, to say the least.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jayjay
post Sep 17 2010, 09:31 AM
Post #4


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,012
Joined: 22-September 09
Member No.: 357



I do not have a problem with the visit, but agree he is not a head of state, therefore cannot be state visit, ergo we should not pay for it. The church is a wealthy institution who can well afford to put it's hand in its pocket, especially when it refers to us a 'third world country'. The creed is give to the poor, not take. How many schools would this money have paid for?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Darren
post Sep 17 2010, 10:13 AM
Post #5


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,251
Joined: 15-May 09
Member No.: 61



This is a state that employ mercenaries....

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xbvr0m_shortfilms - you can skip the annoying ad
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ozzy
post Sep 17 2010, 11:23 AM
Post #6


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 84
Joined: 19-January 10
Member No.: 649



QUOTE (JeffG @ Sep 17 2010, 10:17 AM) *
But it shouldn't be - that's what all the fuss is about. The Vatican is not a proper state.

See Stephen Fry: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11316476

The coverage of this visit is excessive, to say the least.


Ah, but it is a state whether you or I agree or not. It's a fact. Nobody can change that fact unless they invent time travel. Historically it's one of the very oldest sovereign states.

QUOTE (Jayjay @ Sep 17 2010, 10:31 AM) *
I do not have a problem with the visit, but agree he is not a head of state, therefore cannot be state visit, ergo we should not pay for it. The church is a wealthy institution who can well afford to put it's hand in its pocket, especially when it refers to us a 'third world country'. The creed is give to the poor, not take. How many schools would this money have paid for?


It would have possibly paid to upgrade the schools and universities the Catholic Church originally started. They have a long history of supporting education and the dire state of the economy and education in this country is not the Pope's fault.

Your blame on the cost issue is mis-guided. It was not the Pope who chose to visit England on a State Visit. The invitation was granted by previous governments after years of requests and signed off by the Queen no less. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office sanctioned the visit and therefore you comment on creed taking from the poor is a misrepresentation. The angst on cost is a responsibility for the government and queen to carry.

QUOTE (Darren @ Sep 17 2010, 11:13 AM) *
This is a state that employ mercenaries....

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xbvr0m_shortfilms - you can skip the annoying ad


I like Stephen Fry. He is an extremely intelligent chap and a British stalwart. Unfortunately he does not necessarily speak from a position of impartiality. He has a clear reason to discredit religion. Simply listing one after another the wicked things that have been done in the Church’s name over the centuries is not an argument and I would have expected more from him to be honest.

He failed to mention or list the fact that for nearly three centuries after the Reformation, Catholicism was outlawed in England. An odd thing to miss out given the fact that he advocates an open view to society and each should be allowed to practice faith by any means. He also failed to mention the various post-Reformation laws that barred Catholics from entering London, traveling more than 10 miles home or owning horses worth more than 10 pounds. Equally he fails to mention that the Pope will visit Westminster Hall, the medieval chamber within the Houses of Parliament where the Catholic Thomas More was tried and convicted of treason in 1535. More refused to swear an oath accepting the annulment of King Henry's marriage.

I could quite easily list thousands of historical events which are evil in nature. Each person, country or religion has skeletons in the closet but to bash historical facts is not an argument, it is more an attack.

Thus my points are summarised as:

1) it's a state visit which has been requested and arranged by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the blame for the £12m cost is not something which can be questioned of the Pope.

2) The television coverage and extreme media is not focused on the visit itself. It's more a focus on the recent spate of sex abuse claims within the Catholic Church.

The crimes committed are heinous and those guilty should be punished severely in my view. The head of the Catholic Church has apologised for these cases and has begged forgiveness from God and "from the persons involved, while promising to do everything possible to ensure that such abuse will never occur again."


All of the above is probably moot anyway. Today's news is tomorrow's bin lining....

I'm sure next week we will be back to debating whether Coleen Rooney should forgive Wayne or we'll be watching Raul Moat style live tv-coverage of another horrific incident.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
JMH
post Sep 17 2010, 11:53 AM
Post #7


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 131
Joined: 5-June 09
Member No.: 133



QUOTE (Jayjay @ Sep 17 2010, 10:31 AM) *
How many schools would this money have paid for?


Basing that question upon how much it's costing to rebuild St Barts, about a quarter of a school, maybe a third if lucky!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jayjay
post Sep 17 2010, 03:43 PM
Post #8


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,012
Joined: 22-September 09
Member No.: 357



QUOTE (JMH @ Sep 17 2010, 12:53 PM) *
Basing that question upon how much it's costing to rebuild St Barts, about a quarter of a school, maybe a third if lucky!


Taking from Ozzy's post, who seems to know what he/she is talking about, the Pope's visit is costing 12M. That means St Barts is going to cost 30-40M? Is this really the case? Dont take a lot of notice about schools, not having school age children.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Strafin
post Sep 17 2010, 05:04 PM
Post #9


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 3,930
Joined: 14-May 09
From: Newbury
Member No.: 55



QUOTE (Jayjay @ Sep 17 2010, 04:43 PM) *
Taking from Ozzy's post, who seems to know what he/she is talking about,

I agree, good post Ozzy.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Strafin
post Sep 17 2010, 05:04 PM
Post #10


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 3,930
Joined: 14-May 09
From: Newbury
Member No.: 55



QUOTE (Jayjay @ Sep 17 2010, 04:43 PM) *
Taking from Ozzy's post, who seems to know what he/she is talking about,

I agree, good post Ozzy.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Iommi
post Sep 18 2010, 09:50 AM
Post #11


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 4,138
Joined: 13-May 09
From: Newbury
Member No.: 20



QUOTE (Ozzy @ Sep 17 2010, 12:23 PM) *
Thus my points are summarised as:

1) it's a state visit which has been requested and arranged by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the blame for the £12m cost is not something which can be questioned of the Pope.

2) The television coverage and extreme media is not focused on the visit itself. It's more a focus on the recent spate of sex abuse claims within the Catholic Church.

The crimes committed are heinous and those guilty should be punished severely in my view. The head of the Catholic Church has apologised for these cases and has begged forgiveness from God and "from the persons involved, while promising to do everything possible to ensure that such abuse will never occur again."

I wonder what Jesus thinks about all this. I wonder what he thinks about the wealth many Churches harbour while his flock suffers, and not to mention: dwindle in interest. Meanwhile; Islam is a growing faith I understand.

I think this 'choice' of Pope has been a disastrous one for Christianity, let alone Catholicism.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
x2lls
post Sep 18 2010, 09:00 PM
Post #12


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,601
Joined: 25-November 09
Member No.: 511



There are those who, like myself think the whole christianity/islam thing is utter BS. All designed by the few clever ones at the time to enable them to control the illiterate majority.

Why on earth do we need some organisation who take it upon themselves to say what is right or wrong? I know the difference between right and wrong without intervention from some crackpot team of idiots who think they know best and really think that fairies exist.
Ok, so we all have the right to believe what we wish but why oh why are such stupid ideas allowed to have such an influence on our society?. Why is it so important that prime ministers/presidents have to go to church and declare they are religious in order to have credence? Give me proof, show me a bloke who can feed a starving mass with a few fish when whole countries aid budgets can't do it. Convince me that an individual from the year dot has an intellectual advantage over a five year old of the twenty first century.





--------------------
There their, loose loser!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
GMR
post Sep 19 2010, 10:08 AM
Post #13


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 6,085
Joined: 13-May 09
From: Newbury, Berkshire.
Member No.: 33



The good news, which was pointed out, is that we are becoming less religious country. We need to shrug of this mythology. We are free thinking people that must learn to stand on our own feet. Not be guided my something that was started out as a figment of somebody's imagination.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
blackdog
post Sep 19 2010, 10:17 AM
Post #14


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 2,945
Joined: 5-June 09
Member No.: 130



QUOTE (Jayjay @ Sep 17 2010, 04:43 PM) *
That means St Barts is going to cost 30-40M? Is this really the case?

Yes that is the case - £30 million or so in a government grant and the rest raised locally - principally by selling off the Wormstall site (inlcuding playing fields) for housing.

I have to admit that I am amazed they couldn't build a very good school for the £30 million.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Strafin
post Sep 19 2010, 11:17 AM
Post #15


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 3,930
Joined: 14-May 09
From: Newbury
Member No.: 55



QUOTE (GMR @ Sep 19 2010, 11:08 AM) *
The good news, which was pointed out, is that we are becoming less religious country. We need to shrug of this mythology. We are free thinking people that must learn to stand on our own feet. Not be guided my something that was started out as a figment of somebody's imagination.

How is that good news? With the lack of religion and spiritual guidance comes a lack of basic morals and decency. We now have a society that worships prostitutes, thinks cheating is par for the course and drugs are readily accepted. Teenage pregnancy is through the roof as is crime, and the ideals of celebrity at any cost are what our children aspire to. Whilst religion is not without fault, it gives people a sense of belonging, wellbeing and good moral guidance for families and individuals.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Darren
post Sep 19 2010, 12:41 PM
Post #16


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,251
Joined: 15-May 09
Member No.: 61



Although a little more "Do as I preach and not as I do" wouldn't go amiss.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
On the edge
post Sep 19 2010, 01:34 PM
Post #17


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 7,847
Joined: 23-May 09
From: Newbury
Member No.: 98



QUOTE (x2lls @ Sep 18 2010, 10:00 PM) *
There are those who, like myself think the whole christianity/islam thing is utter BS. All designed by the few clever ones at the time to enable them to control the illiterate majority......



It clearly hasn't worked then! laugh.gif


--------------------
Know your place!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
GMR
post Sep 19 2010, 01:39 PM
Post #18


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 6,085
Joined: 13-May 09
From: Newbury, Berkshire.
Member No.: 33



QUOTE (Strafin @ Sep 19 2010, 12:17 PM) *
How is that good news? With the lack of religion and spiritual guidance comes a lack of basic morals and decency. We now have a society that worships prostitutes, thinks cheating is par for the course and drugs are readily accepted. Teenage pregnancy is through the roof as is crime, and the ideals of celebrity at any cost are what our children aspire to. Whilst religion is not without fault, it gives people a sense of belonging, wellbeing and good moral guidance for families and individuals.


That is rubbish; I am not religious nor are my kids; be we/ they have morals and are decent and respect others. There are hell of a lot of people out there who pray to God/ go to church every Sunday but you couldn't call them either decent or that they have morals. Most drug dealers or prostitutes are very religious. Morals and decency comes from with-inside, nothing to do with religion. The Christian history littered with indecency, hatred, wars, control, manipulation and hurt. How did a 'moral,' 'decent' and Christian upbringing help those kids that were abused by, no less, than those that dish out, or supposed to dish, your so-called Christian morals and decency?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
On the edge
post Sep 19 2010, 01:40 PM
Post #19


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 7,847
Joined: 23-May 09
From: Newbury
Member No.: 98



QUOTE (GMR @ Sep 19 2010, 11:08 AM) *
The good news, which was pointed out, is that we are becoming less religious country. We need to shrug of this mythology. We are free thinking people that ......


Pay people who can kick a ball a fortune
Let half the World starve
Sell our industrial base to our competitors
Think British TV is the best
etc. etc.

No, we are still sheep, its just a different dog.


--------------------
Know your place!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Strafin
post Sep 19 2010, 01:45 PM
Post #20


Advanced Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 3,930
Joined: 14-May 09
From: Newbury
Member No.: 55



QUOTE (GMR @ Sep 19 2010, 02:39 PM) *
Most drug dealers or prostitutes are very religious.

Are they?? Care to back this wild claim up before we go any further?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

4 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 

Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 27th January 2022 - 03:52 AM