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Leavers, How many are left? |
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Jul 11 2016, 06:30 PM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jul 11 2016, 07:15 PM) As far as I can make out the referendum was called to ask the people whether we wanted to leave the EU or not. It was not called to elect a leader whether they be for remain or leave. May will now deliver the result that was delivered and within weeks will trigger article 50. Spot on. There was absolutely no reason why David Cameron should have resigned. Doing so simply demonstrates a certain lack of leadership skill in the same way that his personal conduct in the referendum demonstrated a lack of judgement. Perhaps a good thing for the country this was evident before any serious damage could be done. Perhaps it's a reason for holding them more often; such a thing might have exposed Tony Blair's weakness before Iraq.
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Know your place!
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Jul 11 2016, 07:00 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Jul 11 2016, 07:30 PM) Spot on. There was absolutely no reason why David Cameron should have resigned. That's naive. Have you ever negotiated? How could he go along to the EU playing hardball when the people he's negotiating with know that he wanted to stay in the union? His position was untenable.
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Jul 11 2016, 07:45 PM
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QUOTE (newres @ Jul 11 2016, 08:00 PM) That's naive. Have you ever negotiated? How could he go along to the EU playing hardball when the people he's negotiating with know that he wanted to stay in the union? His position was untenable. The new Prime Minister wanted to stay in the Union too.
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Jul 11 2016, 07:55 PM
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QUOTE (newres @ Jul 11 2016, 08:00 PM) That's naive. Have you ever negotiated? How could he go along to the EU playing hardball when the people he's negotiating with know that he wanted to stay in the union? His position was untenable. Read my post - 'personal conduct in the referendum...' He made his position untenable, no one else; he need not have done and could very easily taken a disinterested interest. After all, that's what he was actually doing prior to the campaign. So, I'll say it again, he didn't need to resign. Yes, I have negotiated and yes played hardball with people who knew we wanted to work with them. Surely that's what real negotiations are all about; or are you still stuck with the old bully boy concept that 'negotiation' is just war by another name and can only ever be win / loose?
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Know your place!
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Jul 11 2016, 08:03 PM
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QUOTE (newres @ Jul 11 2016, 07:00 PM) That's naive. Have you ever negotiated? How could he go along to the EU playing hardball when the people he's negotiating with know that he wanted to stay in the union? His position was untenable. Hello! Read the post first !
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Jul 11 2016, 08:16 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Jul 11 2016, 08:55 PM) Read my post - 'personal conduct in the referendum...' He made his position untenable, no one else; he need not have done and could very easily taken a disinterested interest. After all, that's what he was actually doing prior to the campaign. So, I'll say it again, he didn't need to resign.
Yes, I have negotiated and yes played hardball with people who knew we wanted to work with them. Surely that's what real negotiations are all about; or are you still stuck with the old bully boy concept that 'negotiation' is just war by another name and can only ever be win / loose? Why should he pretend he didn't care if his political judgement was that it would be bad for Britain if he leaves? You never said he had to leave because of his personal conduct, you said that his leaving demonstrated a lack of leadership "in the same way that his personal conduct in the referendum demonstrated a lack of judgement". Stop wriggling. I take your point about business negotiations, but this isn't about wanting to stay in, it's about wanting to leave. Still your point is valid. I think Theresa May is in much the same boat though, although I'm assuming that she will fill her cabinet with exit supporters.
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Jul 11 2016, 08:17 PM
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QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Jul 11 2016, 09:03 PM) Hello! Read the post first ! I did. Perhaps you should.
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Jul 11 2016, 08:26 PM
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QUOTE (newres @ Jul 11 2016, 09:17 PM) I did. Perhaps you should. You've got nothing but a cheap haircut and a bad attitude, grow a pair.
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Jul 11 2016, 09:26 PM
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QUOTE (newres @ Jul 11 2016, 09:16 PM) Why should he pretend he didn't care if his political judgement was that it would be bad for Britain if he leaves? You never said he had to leave because of his personal conduct, you said that his leaving demonstrated a lack of leadership "in the same way that his personal conduct in the referendum demonstrated a lack of judgement". Stop wriggling.
I take your point about business negotiations, but this isn't about wanting to stay in, it's about wanting to leave. Still your point is valid. I think Theresa May is in much the same boat though, although I'm assuming that she will fill her cabinet with exit supporters. The referendum is advisory. She has a choice, deliver what the Country wants or accept the consequences at the next general election. That's our process, nought wrong with that. It wasn't anything to do with his credibility in the negotiation that made Cameron's resignation inevitable, it was that he'd essentially turned it into a confidence vote. If he so passionately believed in 'remain'; why call the referendum? Ah, just to stuff UKIP and his own tormentors? That means he was doing a Stanley Baldwin; putting party before country. If the referendum was an honest attempt to gauge the opinion of the people, then surely our disinterested wholly incorruptible civil service would have sent everyone a balanced view of both options. Clearly it wasn't; why?
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Jul 11 2016, 09:30 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Jul 11 2016, 10:26 PM) The referendum is advisory. She has a choice, deliver what the Country wants or accept the consequences at the next general election. What do you think the country wants?
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Jul 11 2016, 10:00 PM
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QUOTE (user23 @ Jul 11 2016, 10:30 PM) What do you think the country wants? More taxation, less taxation; cheaper and more expensive homes; Less and more immigration; cheaper and more expensive labour, more and fewer roads and airports; more and less austerity; closer and less European integration; a more left wing and a more right wing government...
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Jul 11 2016, 10:14 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jul 11 2016, 11:00 PM) More taxation, less taxation; cheaper and more expensive homes; Less and more immigration; cheaper and more expensive labour, more and fewer roads and airports; more and less austerity; closer and less European integration; a more left wing and a more right wing government... LOL! All true.
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Jul 12 2016, 05:19 AM
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QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Jul 11 2016, 09:26 PM) You've got nothing but a cheap haircut and a bad attitude, grow a pair. You see I reckon it's you with the bad attititude. Little Englander is not a good thing to be.
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Jul 12 2016, 06:07 AM
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QUOTE (user23 @ Jul 11 2016, 10:30 PM) What do you think the country wants? From what soundings I've been able to divine, I'd say that there would be very strong support for a common market, very much as described when we joined. Essentially a free trading agreement and nothing more.
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Jul 12 2016, 06:52 AM
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QUOTE (user23 @ Jul 11 2016, 10:30 PM) What do you think the country wants? I have a feeling that a lot of people voted out because of some nebulous notion that Europe wss a Bad Thing, and that the European economic migration that entered the popular concsiousness 10 to 15 years ago was a particularly Bad Thing. What Brexiteers generally appear to want is the repatriation of "control" from Brussels, though they seem largely incapable of saying specifically what control they want repatriating and can't name any of the European legislation that they would repeal and are happy to take it as read that if it's foreign then it's obviously a Bad Thing.
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Right an injustice - give Simon Kirby his allotment back!
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Jul 12 2016, 07:50 AM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jul 12 2016, 07:52 AM) I have a feeling that a lot of people voted out because of some nebulous notion that Europe wss a Bad Thing, and that the European economic migration that entered the popular concsiousness 10 to 15 years ago was a particularly Bad Thing. What Brexiteers generally appear to want is the repatriation of "control" from Brussels, though they seem largely incapable of saying specifically what control they want repatriating and can't name any of the European legislation that they would repeal and are happy to take it as read that if it's foreign then it's obviously a Bad Thing. That's a pretty reasonable deduction. However, that opens the wider problem about the state of UK politics and the establishment governing the Country. National insularity isn't an uncommon phenomena, in fact, it was a UK thing when we joined. In effect then, our political leaders have consistently failed to promote the European ideals but have used it as a means to cover their own inadequacies. The establishment, and thus the remain camp surely should not have been surprised at the outcome. Ironically, in essence that's what Jeremy Corbyn has been trying to say through the screeches of the establishment. For Joe Public, Europe is a better form of government than the shambles we have now and gives him much more protection. For me, the noises coming from our self proclaimed intelligentsia, simply confirm my biggest concern about leaving. That is, I'm not yet convinced we have the political or commercial capability or competence to survive well on our own.
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Jul 12 2016, 09:20 AM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Jul 12 2016, 08:50 AM) That's a pretty reasonable deduction. However, that opens the wider problem about the state of UK politics and the establishment governing the Country. National insularity isn't an uncommon phenomena, in fact, it was a UK thing when we joined. In effect then, our political leaders have consistently failed to promote the European ideals but have used it as a means to cover their own inadequacies. The establishment, and thus the remain camp surely should not have been surprised at the outcome. We think of ourselves as individuals but I suggest that we're far more controlled by a collective consciousness than by our own conscious sentient will, and it's not easy to say what steers that collective consciousness. For the last 1500 years the church has more or less directed society but the advent of printing made it possible for alternative and non-conformist ideas to gain traction which arguably gave us the English Civil War. For the last 150 years society has been led far more by newspaper editors than it has by elected politicians, though ultimately that collective consciousness has a mind of its own and it's difficult to say what if anything leads it. The present zeit geist is cynical of Europe and that's just how it is, and it could be as much a result of the hot summer of 76 and Princess Dianna's death as it is Farrage's aggitating.
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Right an injustice - give Simon Kirby his allotment back!
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