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> What do the LibDems actjually stand for?, Is it simply power at any cost?
On the edge
post Oct 19 2012, 11:57 AM
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Reading the Community Radio thread, it was pretty obvious Richard G had been in deep and meaningful discussion with senior LibDems before his proposition hit the public. That could have been put down to straightforward enthusiasm to get support for a cherished idea.

This weeks' NWN reveals that those discussions went far deeper and seem to be implying that approaches came from LibDems themselves. This was the astounding proposition that Richard, an avowed Socialist should drop his principles and stand as a LibDem at the next general election. This, of course, is the self same party that felt its principles could be stretched to keep the Tories in power for five years! To me, this means that LibDems have no principles, no degree of honour, no policy they would not willingly sacrifice simply for power.

Press report suggests that the bate wasn't taken - but as far as I'm concerned, the damage is done. Trust in politicians is at an all time low - but as far as I'm concerned, don't think I'd ever trust a LibDem again.





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Biker1
post Oct 19 2012, 12:07 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Oct 19 2012, 12:57 PM) *
LibDems have no principles, no degree of honour, no policy they would not willingly sacrifice simply for power.

Correct!
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Andy Capp
post Oct 19 2012, 12:17 PM
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Judging someone's integrity according to their affiliation to one of the main parties seems irrational. Just as the assertion that the Lib Dems are uniquely only in it for the power.
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On the edge
post Oct 19 2012, 01:37 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Oct 19 2012, 01:17 PM) *
Judging someone's integrity according to their affiliation to one of the main parties seems irrational. Just as the assertion that the Lib Dems are uniquely only in it for the power.


If, as their publicity and web site suggests, they are a party of principle and conviction, why on earth would they solicit someone in another party, with its own principles and convictions to stand as their candidate. Suggests the convictions and principles they hold are very shallow indeed. As our local LibDems promote these very heavily, it really does detract from their integrity. Do you trust people who do that?


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Cognosco
post Oct 19 2012, 05:15 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Oct 19 2012, 02:37 PM) *
If, as their publicity and web site suggests, they are a party of principle and conviction, why on earth would they solicit someone in another party, with its own principles and convictions to stand as their candidate. Suggests the convictions and principles they hold are very shallow indeed. As our local LibDems promote these very heavily, it really does detract from their integrity. Do you trust people who do that?


Just look at the record of our local authorities? There is legislation against companies that mislead the public when selling goods etc. Why is there not legislation to cover politicians and political parties who promise the earth in their manifesto and before the elections and of course have no intention of carrying out what they have promised.

Dave said there would be no top down reorganisation of the NHS and we end up with the biggest reorganisation in the history of the NHS.

Nick promises that there would be no tuition fees for students and what do we get?

It is about time they were held to account. Lib Liars will be wiped out in the next election if there is any justice in the world and Dave should lose his deposit if he stands.

Biggest problem is who is there left to vote for? Every politician is held in disrepute and are held in a nearly as much contempt as our bankers and financiers.


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Penelope
post Oct 19 2012, 05:35 PM
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QUOTE (Cognosco @ Oct 19 2012, 06:15 PM) *
Just look at the record of our local authorities? There is legislation against companies that mislead the public when selling goods etc. Why is there not legislation to cover politicians and political parties who promise the earth in their manifesto and before the elections and of course have no intention of carrying out what they have promised.

Dave said there would be no top down reorganisation of the NHS and we end up with the biggest reorganisation in the history of the NHS.

Nick promises that there would be no tuition fees for students and what do we get?

It is about time they were held to account. Lib Liars will be wiped out in the next election if there is any justice in the world and Dave should lose his deposit if he stands.

Biggest problem is who is there left to vote for? Every politician is held in disrepute and are held in a nearly as much contempt as our bankers and financiers.


UKIP?
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Andy Capp
post Oct 19 2012, 05:50 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Oct 19 2012, 02:37 PM) *
If, as their publicity and web site suggests, they are a party of principle and conviction, why on earth would they solicit someone in another party, with its own principles and convictions to stand as their candidate. Suggests the convictions and principles they hold are very shallow indeed. As our local LibDems promote these very heavily, it really does detract from their integrity. Do you trust people who do that?

I'm not sure they have done anything wrong in thins case. Perhaps RG realises something about Newbury that he didn't appreciate before.
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Andy Capp
post Oct 19 2012, 05:53 PM
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The Lib Dem tuition fees fiasco wasn't about keeping the commitment (THEY DIDN'T WIN THE ELECTION), it was that is wasn't costed, but they never thought for a moment they would have to keep to it. What I think they have done though, is put in a progressive alternative.
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Cognosco
post Oct 19 2012, 06:19 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Oct 19 2012, 06:53 PM) *
The Lib Dem tuition fees fiasco wasn't about keeping the commitment ( THEY DIDN'T WIN THE ELECTION), it was that is wasn't costed, but they never thought for a moment they would have to keep to it. What I think the have done though, is put in a progressive alternative.


Exactly so they misled the electorate? Politicians and parties can promise anything they think the electorate want to hear before the election and then completely ignore what they have promised when they get in power. How can this be right? Business has to comply with legislation such as the trades description act. Something as important as governing a country or running a large local authority should be treated with more respect than the same actions as a crooked second hand car salesman? angry.gif


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On the edge
post Oct 19 2012, 07:29 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Oct 19 2012, 06:50 PM) *
I'm not sure they have done anything wrong in thins case. Perhaps RG realises something about Newbury that he didn't appreciate before.


What? That we were once taken in big time by a bunch of unprincipled third raters? Look at their behaviour in the coalition, going gets a bit tough and they start tweeting the opposition! Integrity? Not as I know it. All they are after is power, but without responsibility and we all know who's prerogative that is.


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GMR
post Oct 19 2012, 07:54 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Oct 19 2012, 12:57 PM) *
This weeks' NWN reveals that those discussions went far deeper and seem to be implying that approaches came from LibDems themselves. This was the astounding proposition that Richard, an avowed Socialist should drop his principles and stand as a LibDem at the next general election. This, of course, is the self same party that felt its principles could be stretched to keep the Tories in power for five years! To me, this means that LibDems have no principles, no degree of honour, no policy they would not willingly sacrifice simply for power.


A couple of points here; the Lib Dems stand for PR, which means forming coalitions with parties like either the Tories or the Labour party. They've never wavered from that. Secondly; by joining forces with the Tories they managed to get a lot of Liberal policies through. PR means compromise.

Concerning Richard; if he joined the Lib Dems then the onus would have been on him to shift his believes and policies. Vince Cable was a Labour Party member and jumped ship. He had to shift his socialist views to accommodate the Lib Dems. None of this means that the LIb Dems haven't got "no principles, no degree of honour" or no policy that they wouldn't willingly sacrifice. It means that the Lib Dems are doing what they've been preaching for years; PR and compromising.

QUOTE
Press report suggests that the bate wasn't taken - but as far as I'm concerned, the damage is done. Trust in politicians is at an all time low - but as far as I'm concerned, don't think I'd ever trust a Lib-Dem again.




Through history policitians have jumped ship. Look at Churchill who had done it twice. As he famously said "Anyone can rat, but it takes a certain amount of ingenuity to re-rat."

I can't see any damage being done here other than an age old jumping of ships.
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GMR
post Oct 19 2012, 07:58 PM
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QUOTE (Cognosco @ Oct 19 2012, 07:19 PM) *
Exactly so they misled the electorate? Politicians and parties can promise anything they think the electorate want to hear before the election and then completely ignore what they have promised when they get in power. How can this be right? Business has to comply with legislation such as the trades description act. Something as important as governing a country or running a large local authority should be treated with more respect than the same actions as a crooked second hand car salesman? angry.gif




They didn't mislead the electorate. The electorate were/ are too thick to understand politics.

The Lib Dems said that if they win the election no tuition frees would go up. They came third thus making their manifesto null and void. Therefore they had to barter their policies with another party; which is PR.

The problem here is that you don't know how politics works.
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GMR
post Oct 19 2012, 07:59 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Oct 19 2012, 08:29 PM) *
What? That we were once taken in big time by a bunch of unprincipled third raters? Look at their behaviour in the coalition, going gets a bit tough and they start tweeting the opposition! Integrity? Not as I know it. All they are after is power, but without responsibility and we all know who's prerogative that is.



All parties can be accused of that.
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On the edge
post Oct 19 2012, 08:59 PM
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QUOTE (GMR @ Oct 19 2012, 08:54 PM) *
.... None of this means that the LIb Dems haven't got "no principles, no degree of honour" or no policy that they wouldn't willingly sacrifice. It means that the Lib Dems are doing what they've been preaching for years; PR and compromising.....
I can't see any damage being done here other than an age old jumping of ships.


Not exactly what it says on their web site! If it did, then fine - they are acting to their beliefs. From the local web site, here's what Tony Vickers says:-

I've been a Lib Dem party member since school in the 60s, when my father left the Army with thoughts of Parliament. I too 'entered politics' after a career with Military Survey, which brought me to the Newbury area in 1980.

It is the principle of social and economic justice combined with 'small government' and free markets operating for 'the small man' that attracted me to Liberalism. We offer a healthy 'green' alternative to the politics of greed and envy represented by Toryism and Socialism respectively. As David Steel said: "If Liberalism didn't exist, we would need to invent it."

and

My father was a Liberal and mutualism is what kept him voting Liberal all is his life," commented District Councillor Tony Vickers "It's easy to do and sends a message to the other banks - Labour should be ashamed of the way they let the banks act so recklessly." If you wish to switch your bank and support worker-owned enterprise call into the Newbury Branch of Britannia Co-op.

Which all tends to suggest he wants us to believe he is a man of principle and not wanting to sacrifice them for cheap political gain - i.e. compromise.If he feels that strongly about his political beliefs, why should he think a leader in another should not feel the same way about his and indeed why the electorate should as well.

Yes, Churchill ratted, twice, both times so as not to compromise his beliefs. Subtle difference was that the receiving party didn't make the overtures!


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GMR
post Oct 19 2012, 09:36 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Oct 19 2012, 09:59 PM) *
Not exactly what it says on their web site! If it did, then fine - they are acting to their beliefs. Here's what Tony Vickers says:-
I've been a Lib Dem party member since school in the 60s, when my father left the Army with thoughts of Parliament. I too 'entered politics' after a career with Military Survey, which brought me to the Newbury area in 1980.

It is the principle of social and economic justice combined with 'small government' and free markets operating for 'the small man' that attracted me to Liberalism. We offer a healthy 'green' alternative to the politics of greed and envy represented by Toryism and Socialism respectively. As David Steel said: "If Liberalism didn't exist, we would need to invent it."

and

My father was a Liberal and mutualism is what kept him voting Liberal all is his life," commented District Councillor Tony Vickers "It's easy to do and sends a message to the other banks - Labour should be ashamed of the way they let the banks act so recklessly." If you wish to switch your bank and support worker-owned enterprise call into the Newbury Branch of Britannia Co-op.

Which all tends to suggest he wants us to believe he is a man of principle and npt wanting to sacrifice them for cheap political gain - i.e. compromise.

Yes, Churchill ratted, twice, both times so as not to compromise his beliefs. Subtle difference was that the receiving party didn't make the overtures!




Whatever he does or doesn't say is irrelevant; the the Lib Dems have always stood for PR and PR means compromise. In fact they have tried to change the law for PR and failed but it is still a target. It is always in their manifesto. And as I said; PR means compromise. Tony Vickers should know that being a Lib Dem. It it printed in their beliefs and is at the heart of Lib Dems philosophy. As for quoting David Steel; he was and is a Liberal; as opposed to a Lib Dem.

Some historians have argued that Churchill was an opportunist and went where he would or could politically gain.
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Adrian Hollister
post Oct 19 2012, 10:03 PM
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Coalitions and compromise can be a good thing. Selling out your red line items is not a good thing and just promotes distrust. This seems to be what's happened to the Lib Dems and they will loose most of their protest voters who won't see them as a safe bet.
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Andy Capp
post Oct 19 2012, 10:06 PM
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GMR ... I stand up an applaud your posts. Bang on. And I say this without being your biggest fan nor a devotee of the Lib Dems. If what is said is true about RG, then he is making a common sense decision taking into account of the conditions before him.


Saying all that, I will never vote for any councillor that hung Simon Kirby like the Newbury Council did. All parties.
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Andy Capp
post Oct 19 2012, 10:50 PM
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QUOTE (Cognosco @ Oct 19 2012, 07:19 PM) *
Politicians and parties can promise anything they think the electorate want to hear before the election and then completely ignore what they have promised when they get in power.

But that isn't what happened. They didn't completely ignore what they promised. They also didn't get in to power; it is a coalition.

QUOTE (Cognosco @ Oct 19 2012, 07:19 PM) *
How can this be right?

Correct; it isn't.

QUOTE (Cognosco @ Oct 19 2012, 07:19 PM) *
Business has to comply with legislation such as the trades description act. Something as important as governing a country or running a large local authority should be treated with more respect than the same actions as a crooked second hand car salesman? angry.gif

Running a country and running a car dealership? yeah right ... the problem with democracy ... yes, the Lib Dems made a commitment they wouldn't have been able to fulfil, for that they don't deserve government as they appear to be incompetent, but when in opposition, sometimes, it helps to make similar commitments to help mitigate the ideas of more aggressive parties like the Tories would make. There is more than one way to affect politics than being in power.

To call the Lib Dems liars simply for the student fees fiasco is absurd. Naive, yes, but liars ... how can you lie about something that hasn't happened?
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Penelope
post Oct 19 2012, 10:59 PM
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And call me Dave promised us a referendum on Europe, I'm still waiting. Show me an honest politician and I'll show you a liar.
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Squelchy
post Oct 20 2012, 07:01 AM
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QUOTE (GMR @ Oct 19 2012, 10:36 PM) *
Whatever he does or doesn't say is irrelevant; the the Lib Dems have always stood for PR and PR means compromise. In fact they have tried to change the law for PR and failed but it is still a target. It is always in their manifesto. And as I said; PR means compromise. Tony Vickers should know that .


Wasn't it also UKIP policy to support the AV vote?
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