Don't come to Newbury..., ...if en-route to the Madejski Options

[biggus_richus]

Did anyone else have the "pleasure", at midday on Saturday, of shopping at the market when a load of Cardiff FC supporters, drinking outside the Hatchet, started up a load of foul-mouthed football chanting?

Felt a bit sorry for the owners of the cupcake stall, who were pitched right next to the louts, and served to hasten my exit out of town. As I left, there were a couple of PCSOs stood at the corner of the Corn Exchange, observing.

Particularly glad my son wasn't with me; aside from providing an unwelcome expansion of his vocabulary, it didn't make for a very nice atmosphere (unless you were en-route to a football match, I guess).

[massifheed]

Particularly glad my son wasn't with me; aside from providing an unwelcome expansion of his vocabulary, it didn't make for a very nice atmosphere

That sounds like a section 5 public order offence then, and they should have been arrested. Why, when pubs have the right to refuse service, they choose to let these people continue drinking, I have no idea. Furthermore, I would have thought that the police would have had a word with the landlord and reminded him of the law regards serving people who are, or appear to be, intoxicated.

As you say, not a very nice atmosphere for everyone else minding their own business in town.

[Biker1]

That sounds like a section 5 public order offence then, and they should have been arrested. Why, when pubs have the right to refuse service, they choose to let these people continue drinking, I have no idea. Furthermore, I would have thought that the police would have had a word with the landlord and reminded him of the law regards serving people who are, or appear to be, intoxicated.

As you say, not a very nice atmosphere for everyone else minding their own business in town.

Get used to it - it's the Hennessey on Saturday!!
(By the way, it's not an offence to use offensive language in public any more - or is that just at police officers?)

[TallDarkAndHands...]

Get used to it - it's the Hennessey on Saturday!!

Louts in suits rather than football shirts!

[massifheed]

(By the way, it's not an offence to use offensive language in public any more - or is that just at police officers?)

Really?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harassment,_alarm_or_distress

The offence is created by section 5 of the Public Order Act 1986:

"(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he: ( a ) uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or ( b ) displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting, within the hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress thereby."

This offence has the following statutory defences:
( a ) The defendant had no reason to believe that there was any person within hearing or sight who was likely to be alarmed or distressed by his action. ( b ) The defendant was in a dwelling and had no reason to believe that his behaviour would be seen or heard by any person outside any dwelling. ( c ) The conduct was reasonable.

[Bofem]

I watched a TVP officer videoing these jovial sports fans. Three PCSOs turned up and had photos taken with some of the Cardiff fans, all rather jolly really. Not a taser in sight, just common sense and a bit of intimidation from our police. Hmmm

[Biker1]

Really?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harassment,_alarm_or_distress

I was just referring to this from another thread.
Confusing isn't it?

[massifheed]

Confusing isn't it?

Yup. And an article on the BBC website seems to suggest that it isn't, in fact, a crime anymore. But surely, all the while section 5 of the public order act is there then doing that which the act prohibits is still an offence? Just because one judge decides that the police must hear swearing so much that it shouldn't offend them, doesn't mean that it's no longer an offence.

I don't buy the "commonplace" argument either. Just because it's not uncommon to hear people swearing in public doesn't mean it's suddenly ok.

[Simon Kirby]

I was just referring to this from another thread.
Confusing isn't it?

It's not really confusing when you actually read what happend rather than the Torygraph's editorialization. Using threatening, abusive, or insulting words within the hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress if the conduct is unreasonable is an offence, but saying to the policemen who just unsuccessfully frisked you for ganja "F**k this man. I ain't been smoking nothing. Told you, you wouldn't find f**k all." isn't an offence because a met officer isn't a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress by that level of casual profanity.

[Biker1]

saying to the policemen who just unsuccessfully frisked you for ganja "F**k this man. I ain't been smoking nothing. Told you, you wouldn't find f**k all." isn't an offence because a met officer isn't a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress by that level of casual profanity.

You think it's OK to swear at the police- I don't!
It's a matter of respect, not whether they were offended or not.

It's not really confusing when you actually read what happend rather than the Torygraph's editorialization.

It is in all the papers - I knew whatever paper I referred to it would draw a comment such as yours.

[massifheed]

...met officer isn't a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress by that level of casual profanity.

The thinking being that they hear it all the time. By why should they have to put up with it? Why shouldn't the suspect be arrested for it? In the encounter between the police and the suspect I am willing to bet that the police officers managed to conduct themselves without swearing, so why should they have to put up with it from the suspect?

[Simon Kirby]

I don't buy the "commonplace" argument either. Just because it's not uncommon to hear people swearing in public doesn't mean it's suddenly ok.

Who's saying public profanity is OK? It's not OK, it's rude and offensive, but being rude and offensive isn't yet a criminal offence. It only becomes an offence if the profanity is threatening, abusive, or insulting, so that's more than just the words themselves, it's how they're delivered, and it also has to be within the hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress, and your man on the clapham omnibus isn't expected to take faint at a simple bit of profanity, though it would be another matter in say a kintergarden.

[Simon Kirby]

The thinking being that they hear it all the time. By why should they have to put up with it? Why shouldn't the suspect be arrested for it? In the encounter between the police and the suspect I am willing to bet that the police officers managed to conduct themselves without swearing, so why should they have to put up with it from the suspect?

All profanity should be an offence?

[Simon Kirby]

You think it's OK to swear at the police- I don't!
It's a matter of respect, not whether they were offended or not.

He didn't swear at the police though did he. Swearing at the police would have been something like "Go F**k yourself" but he didn't say that, he said "F**k this man. I ain't been smoking nothing. Told you, you wouldn't find f**k all". You might as well demand he be locked up for poor grammar.

[Biker1]

He didn't swear at the police though did he. Swearing at the police would have been something like "Go F**k yourself" but he didn't say that, he said "F**k this man. I ain't been smoking nothing. Told you, you wouldn't find f**k all". You might as well demand he be locked up for poor grammar.

Like I said - it's a matter of respect.
If you let that go then you are on the slippery slope to more serious offences.

[Simon Kirby]

Like I said - it's a matter of respect.
If you let that go then you are on the slippery slope to more serious offences.

No, what you said is that the chap swore at the police, but he didn't, he just swore, and you were trying to use your fallacy to construct an argument that the case shows that the courts won't take action against people swearing at the police, whereas the case shows nothing of the sort.

I suggest that criminalising profanity per se is the more insidious slope to be slippering upon.

[Guest_xjay1337_*]

Like I said - it's a matter of respect.
If you let that go then you are on the slippery slope to more serious offences.

Yeah, swearing, profanity (how can boobies be classed as offensive for example, everyone loves those), yelling and shouting; next thing people will be out mugging old ladies and murdering immigrants.

What a preposterous (always wanted an excuse to use that word) suggestion.

[Biker1]

No, what you said is that the chap swore at the police, but he didn't,

Yes he did!
(Or if not, who was he talking to?)

[Simon Kirby]

Yes he did!
(Or if not, who was he talking to?)

So you're saying that all profanity in all situations should be criminalised. Fine. I don't agree, but I accept that you feel strongly about it.

[Biker1]

So you're saying that all profanity in all situations should be criminalised.

No, of course not. With the way bad language abounds these days that, of course, would be impossible.
I'm just saying that we should not, as a civilised society, find it acceptable. Especially towards those who are purportedly in authority.