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> Time to get out of Libya?
Richard Garvie
post Apr 15 2011, 01:32 PM
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I'm feeling more and more uneasy about Libya, and what the resolution allows us to do. We re supposed to be policing a no fly zone, but a joint letter from Obama, Cameron and Sarkozy seems to suggest that the goal is to remove Gaddafi. That is NOT part of the resiolution, and I don't thing the people of any nation has real desire to see us throw money and troops at a conflict which was sparked by a revolution supposedly backed by Al Qaeda. Here are some thoughts on the letter from a colleague's blog:

“It is impossible to imagine a future for Libya with Gaddafi in power.”
It is impossible for us to have a relationship with this oil rich state, while the man we bombed, from 30,000 ft, remains stubbornly in place.

“It is unthinkable that someone who has tried to massacre his own people can play a part in their future government.”
We want you to believe that it was a democratic uprising not a tribal rebellion.

“The brave citizens of those towns that have held out against forces that have been mercilessly targeting them would face a fearful vengeance if the world accepted such an arrangement. It would be an unconscionable betrayal.”
Having encouraged them to attack Gaddafi, we can’t back out now.

“So long as Gaddafi is in power, Nato and its coalition partners must maintain their operations so that civilians remain protected and the pressure on the regime builds.”
We didn’t have an exit strategy.

“Then a genuine transition from dictatorship to an inclusive constitutional process can really begin, led by a new generation of leaders.”
Benghazi has us over a barrel and is refusing to deal with Tripoli, even on the basis of a new constitution.

“For that transition to succeed, Colonel Gaddafi must go, and go for good.”
Mission Creep is his fault not ours.

“At that point, the United Nations and its members should help the Libyan people as they rebuild where Gaddafi has destroyed — to repair homes and hospitals, to restore basic utilities, and to assist Libyans as they develop the institutions to underpin a prosperous and open society.”
We’re the good guys. We hope this doesn’t become a new Somalia. If it does, we’ll blame Gaddafi, while denying the fact that the first day of the uprising included the fire-bombing of two police stations.

“Britain, France and the United States will not rest until the UN Security Council resolutions have been implemented and the Libyan people can choose their own future.”
We cannot lose face on this one. Resolution 1973 has been implemented, but we want to give the impression that there was an end-game written into the resolution, in order that we can be seen to acting on behalf of a higher moral purpose than our own embarrassment.

The most interesting aspect of this business is the way in which Obama became involved. He was an initial sceptic of the offensive, but became involved when an international consensus came together against Gaddafi.

The letter was written by Sarkozy and Cameron and sent to Obama out of courtesy, yet Obama requested that his name be added.

Even though the operation has now gone wrong, he has strengthened his bond with his British and French allies. This is consistent with his policy that international consensus is required for interventionist military action. Yet it also goes beyond that.

After three wars and ten years of confrontation with the west, the moral arguments for removing Saddam Hussein were massively greater than those used for removing Gaddafi. For example, last year’s uprising in Benghazi, when they rioted and attacked the police, did not result in genocide, so the justification for today’s military action was based only on Gaddafi’s rhetoric.

Yet the great difference between this action and the one in Iraq is that Iraq had no international consensus, whereas this one does. Even though the decision to back the UN resolution was made by the Arab League during the stress of their own uprisings, it is still a consensus.

Iraq was illegitimate, while Libya is legitimate, even though Iraq was arguably right, while Libya is arguably wrong.

So for Obama, the question of whether the action is right or wrong is less important than whether the international community is united. Consensus and coalition is more important to him than the removal of a dictator.

To Obama, the consensus achieved by Resolution 1973 marks a “crossing of the Rubicon” for the International Community. It means that future consensus will be easier to achieve. That must be a good thing.

However, we’re now bogged down in a relatively pointless conflict, with no clear way forward. We’ve cut off 2% of the world’s oil supply at a time of economic fragility. We’re spending billions on military action, when we should be paying off our deficits. An objective view would consider this to be madness.

The price of achieving consensus has been very expensive indeed. And it’s still not over yet.

Thoughts?
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dannyboy
post Apr 15 2011, 01:39 PM
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My first thought is that you should have given Dan McMurry credit.

http://www.danmccurry.org/2011/04/15/de-co...olicy-of-obama/
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Richard Garvie
post Apr 15 2011, 02:00 PM
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QUOTE (Richard Garvie @ Apr 15 2011, 01:32 PM) *
Here are some thoughts on the letter from a colleague's blog:


Would anyone in Newbury know who he is?
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dannyboy
post Apr 15 2011, 02:11 PM
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QUOTE (Richard Garvie @ Apr 15 2011, 03:00 PM) *
Would anyone in Newbury know who he is?

It does not matter. Cutting and pasting an entire article written by some one else without credit is a bit off. IMHO
everything after Here are some thoughts on the letter from a colleague's blog: until thoughts? is a cut & paste.

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TallDarkAndHands...
post Apr 15 2011, 02:24 PM
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QUOTE (dannyboy @ Apr 15 2011, 03:11 PM) *
It does not matter. Cutting and pasting an entire article written by some one else without credit is a bit off. IMHO
everything after Here are some thoughts on the letter from a colleague's blog: until thoughts? is a cut & paste.


Caught out with his pants well and truly down. I wonder if RG passed all his exams in this manner. laugh.gif Google has a lot to answer for!
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Richard Garvie
post Apr 15 2011, 04:10 PM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Apr 15 2011, 02:24 PM) *
Caught out with his pants well and truly down. I wonder if RG passed all his exams in this manner. laugh.gif Google has a lot to answer for!


What part of "Here are some thoughts on the letter from a colleague's blog:" is difficult to understand? Why was I caught with my pants down, and why would sharing a colleagues blog help me pass exams?
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NWNREADER
post Apr 15 2011, 04:57 PM
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Deleted because I was wrong.

better to just post the link, perhaps......
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Andy Capp
post Apr 15 2011, 07:27 PM
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QUOTE (NWNREADER @ Apr 15 2011, 05:57 PM) *
Outrageous plagiarism and trying to look smart. Maybe even breach of copyright by re-publishing without credit.

You implied the comments were yours, regardless of the fact the quality of grammar and spelling - let alone the quality of the arguement, clearly screamed it was not.

Not on.

I think you and others are rather over egging this. He did say it was from another's blogg, although if it were me, I'd put a link to the source.

It is not, in my view, outrageous plagiarism.
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GMR
post Apr 15 2011, 07:40 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Apr 15 2011, 08:27 PM) *
I think you and others are rather over egging this. He did say it was from another's blogg, although if it were me, I'd put a link to the source.

It is not, in my view, outrageous plagiarism.



I don't think it is a case of them 'over egging' but a case of them giving the pedantic crew something to moan, shout and cry about. wink.gif
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Rosewinelover
post Apr 15 2011, 07:50 PM
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QUOTE (Richard Garvie @ Apr 15 2011, 05:10 PM) *
What part of "Here are some thoughts on the letter from a colleague's blog:" is difficult to understand? Why was I caught with my pants down, and why would sharing a colleagues blog help me pass exams?


Agree. It already states that this isn't your words...Your be picked at for anything Richard, you should know that by now....
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GMR
post Apr 15 2011, 08:11 PM
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QUOTE (Rosewinelover @ Apr 15 2011, 08:50 PM) *
Agree. It already states that this isn't your words...Your be picked at for anything Richard, you should know that by now....


I think one of the reasons he is criticised a lot is because he has something to say; as opposed to those that criticise who really have nothing to say other than to criticise for criticising sake. We need more people like Richard Garvie on here; that'll put the cat amongst the pigeons.
tongue.gif
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Rosewinelover
post Apr 15 2011, 08:31 PM
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QUOTE (GMR @ Apr 15 2011, 09:11 PM) *
I think one of the reasons he is criticised a lot is because he has something to say; as opposed to those that criticise who really have nothing to say other than to criticise for criticising sake. We need more people like Richard Garvie on here; that'll put the cat amongst the pigeons.
tongue.gif


There is plenty of stuff for RG to be criticised over, but I find it pathetic when people just pick at something which isn't there. Its kinda playground stuff which is boring.
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user23
post Apr 15 2011, 08:38 PM
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QUOTE (Rosewinelover @ Apr 15 2011, 09:31 PM) *
There is plenty of stuff for RG to be criticised over, but I find it pathetic when people just pick at something which isn't there. Its kinda playground stuff which is boring.
Is that a playground with or without a fence? wink.gif
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Rosewinelover
post Apr 15 2011, 08:41 PM
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QUOTE (user23 @ Apr 15 2011, 09:38 PM) *
Is that a playground with or without a fence? wink.gif

Ha, without a fence in this case!
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NWNREADER
post Apr 15 2011, 09:12 PM
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I have edited (deleted, actually) my post as it was erroneous.
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Turin Machine
post Apr 15 2011, 09:56 PM
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Should we be in Libya? No

Should we be in Afghanistan ? No

Should we have gone to Iraq ? No

It won't be long before we start losing our men to what is a losing position in aomeone elses rebellion.

Stop posturing, get real and get out !


--------------------
Gammon. And proud!
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Andy Capp
post Apr 15 2011, 10:29 PM
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QUOTE (NWNREADER @ Apr 15 2011, 10:12 PM) *
I have edited (deleted, actually) my post as it was erroneous.

You have edited the post actually; ordinary members cannot delete posts! wink.gif

QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Apr 15 2011, 10:56 PM) *
Should we be in Libya? No

Should we be in Afghanistan ? No

Should we have gone to Iraq ? No

It won't be long before we start losing our men to what is a losing position in aomeone elses rebellion.

Stop posturing, get real and get out !

Agreed, although I'm not sure getting out is necessarily the right thing to do now.
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GMR
post Apr 15 2011, 10:30 PM
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QUOTE (Rosewinelover @ Apr 15 2011, 09:31 PM) *
There is plenty of stuff for RG to be criticised over, but I find it pathetic when people just pick at something which isn't there. Its kinda playground stuff which is boring.



To be fair most on here have the mentality of playground kids.
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GMR
post Apr 15 2011, 10:31 PM
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QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Apr 15 2011, 10:56 PM) *
Should we be in Libya? yes

Should we be in Afghanistan ? yes

Should we have gone to Iraq ? yes



wink.gif
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NWNREADER
post Apr 15 2011, 10:33 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Apr 15 2011, 11:29 PM) *
You have edited the post actually; ordinary members cannot delete posts! wink.gif

1. I deleted what I had posted, replacing with (another) grovel;
2. I am not ordinary. I am unique
tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif
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