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Simon Kirby
post Apr 25 2017, 07:52 PM
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I've mentioned before that I like a bit of pageantry, but I have to admit to having some difficulty with St. George and his cross. George is a poor choice for national saint as he never set foot in England and we share him with some twenty or so other countries which is a bit weird for a patron saint. St George was adopted by Richard the Lion Heart while he was off on his religious war in the Middle East and that's not something I particularly want to celebrate, but most objectionably of all is the celebration of St George's blood-sport with the killing of a dragon. In the story, which is supposed to have happened in Libya, St George captures this dragon and then carts it off to the local city where he uses the threat of the poor captured creature to compel the inhabitants to convert to Christianity, and then kills the animal once the citizenry have duly obliged. So for me there's nothing to celebrate in the character of George and he's certainly nothing of an English archetype. As a Christian saint it's perhaps a bit much to complain about the religious iconography, but he is after all a national hero and as I'm not a Christian I'm also not entirely happy for the religious iconography of the cross to insinuate itself so overtly into my national imagery.


But there is an alternative. St Edmund the Martyr was the English national saint almost before there was a nation of England, and he has much better credentials as an English archetype. King Edmund was King of the East Angles at a time when the Vikings held large swathes of the East of what was still to become England. He was a Christian King who had the misfortune of being captured by the Vikings who made him the offer of renouncing his religion, but he refused so the Vikings tied him to a tree and killed him with arrows. For me his courage and perseverance make him a much more attractive national saint in a country where quietly doing the right thing is something we respect.


And he has a cracking flag too!


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Andy Capp
post Apr 25 2017, 11:15 PM
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The whole thing's a load of baloney. We're English by chance and that's it. Nevertheless, yours is an interesting read.
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Turin Machine
post Apr 26 2017, 12:13 AM
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Wrong (again) sigh! The White dragon flag is the battle flag of the saxons. Edmund's (or more accurately, Eadmund of East Anglia's) banner (or flag) was a 'device azure with three ducal coronets d'or' The first is a generic battle standard in common use 'till recently, the second was Edmund's personal flag. 😂. Nice try though. Oh, and there's no evidence of him being tied to a tree, that's a later use of an established iconography as displayed by Saint Sebastian and perpetuted by Ælfric of Eynsham. Can't trust anybody can you?


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Simon Kirby
post Apr 26 2017, 06:43 AM
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QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Apr 26 2017, 01:13 AM) *
Wrong (again) sigh! The White dragon flag is the battle flag of the saxons. Edmund's (or more accurately, Eadmund of East Anglia's) banner (or flag) was a 'device azure with three ducal coronets d'or' The first is a generic battle standard in common use 'till recently, the second was Edmund's personal flag. 😂. Nice try though. Oh, and there's no evidence of him being tied to a tree, that's a later use of an established iconography as displayed by Saint Sebastian and perpetuted by Ælfric of Eynsham. Can't trust anybody can you?

That's fair enough, but I like the idea of a national day and I prefer the St Edmund myth to the present one - I happen to like dragons too, but you'll be telling me they don't exist next.


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Simon Kirby
post Apr 26 2017, 06:52 AM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Apr 26 2017, 12:15 AM) *
The whole thing's a load of baloney. We're English by chance and that's it.

But I'm not rooting any claim to national superiority in the Edmund myth, I just think a bit of pageant and colour can be a good thing at times, and if we're to have a national saint I'm much more comfortable with Edmund than George.


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je suis Charlie
post Apr 26 2017, 07:32 AM
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St George mate. Big English bloke onna horse, big scaley lizard, 's miffic innit! tongue.gif
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Andy Capp
post Apr 26 2017, 08:10 AM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Apr 26 2017, 07:52 AM) *
But I'm not rooting any claim to national superiority in the Edmund myth, I just think a bit of pageant and colour can be a good thing at times, and if we're to have a national saint I'm much more comfortable with Edmund than George.

I think perhaps the St George myth sums up olde religion: the my way or the highway attitude. Saints are there to prove or promote Christianity, so this dragon is out!
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je suis Charlie
post Apr 26 2017, 03:07 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Apr 26 2017, 07:52 AM) *
But I'm not rooting any claim to national superiority in the Edmund myth, I just think a bit of pageant and colour can be a good thing at times, and if we're to have a national saint I'm much more comfortable with Edmund than George.

That fits, support a loser, someone who failed to keep his nation safe. In the great tradition of Jeremy Corbyn. angry.gif
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On the edge
post Apr 26 2017, 03:45 PM
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The dragon bit is simply pantomime. The likelihood is that reality us rather more prosaic. Simply another Roman Soldier who after conversion to Chritianity refused to bow down to Caesar abd inspite of being offered a way out, paid the ultimate price. Like Edmund another martyr. We know a bit about martyrs in Newbury, hence the proposed statue of Winchcombe....


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je suis Charlie
post Apr 26 2017, 03:53 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Apr 26 2017, 07:52 AM) *
I just think a bit of pageant and colour can be a good thing at times.

Oh RLY?? smile.gif
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Simon Kirby
post Apr 26 2017, 07:19 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Apr 26 2017, 04:45 PM) *
The dragon bit is simply pantomime. The likelihood is that reality us rather more prosaic. Simply another Roman Soldier who after conversion to Chritianity refused to bow down to Caesar abd inspite of being offered a way out, paid the ultimate price. Like Edmund another martyr. We know a bit about martyrs in Newbury, hence the proposed statue of Winchcombe....

Yes, I read the dragon was a Roman motif - although there's nothing wrong with a bit of pantomime as long as everyone remembers that's what it is.


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Andy Capp
post Apr 26 2017, 07:26 PM
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QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Apr 26 2017, 04:07 PM) *
That fits, support a loser, someone who failed to keep his nation safe. In the great tradition of Jeremy Corbyn. angry.gif

St George fared no better. Besides, Corbyn has never been the tested in government so your argument is bogus anyway.
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je suis Charlie
post Apr 26 2017, 07:32 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Apr 26 2017, 08:26 PM) *
St George fared no better. Besides, Corbyn has never been the tested in government so your argument is bogus anyway.

And never will. Phew!
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Turin Machine
post Apr 27 2017, 06:07 AM
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Just a passing thought but shouldn't the labour party have its own patron saint? Perhaps the blessed St Werburgh? It was she after all who reputedly brought a dead goose back to life!


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Biker1
post Apr 27 2017, 07:23 AM
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QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Apr 26 2017, 04:53 PM) *
Oh RLY?? smile.gif

Are you trying to point out that Simon's mates at the Town Council do this occasionally?
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je suis Charlie
post Apr 27 2017, 10:06 AM
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QUOTE (Biker1 @ Apr 27 2017, 08:23 AM) *
Are you trying to point out that Simon's mates at the Town Council do this occasionally?

Yeah but, that'll be different won't it.
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Simon Kirby
post Apr 27 2017, 09:35 PM
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QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Apr 27 2017, 11:06 AM) *
Yeah but, that'll be different won't it.

I like a bit of pageant because it creates distinctiveness and community, and it can be funky and fun. There's no particular reason why pageant should have any deep historical basis, but some has, and I find that fascinating too. So if it's inclusive I think a bit of pageant is a good thing. Like this for example:


However, in local government pageant can become self-aggrandising, excluding people from their local government administration and giving those involved an unhealthy sense of entitlement. Like this example.


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Simon Kirby
post Apr 28 2017, 06:45 AM
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QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Apr 26 2017, 08:32 AM) *
St George mate. Big English bloke onna horse, big scaley lizard, 's miffic innit! tongue.gif

Though St. George wasn't English, he was a Greek officer in the Roman army who never even visited the British Isles.


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Simon Kirby
post Apr 28 2017, 06:57 AM
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QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Apr 26 2017, 04:07 PM) *
That fits, support a loser, someone who failed to keep his nation safe.

Curiously enough both St. George and St. Edmund are venerated as Christian saints because they were executed for refusing to denounce their faith, the dragon-killing thing is just an arbitrary piece of fabled brutality that sat better with the Norman's than the piety of a Saxon.


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je suis Charlie
post Apr 28 2017, 09:06 AM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Apr 28 2017, 07:57 AM) *
Curiously enough both St. George and St. Edmund are venerated as Christian saints because they were executed for refusing to denounce their faith, the dragon-killing thing is just an arbitrary piece of fabled brutality that sat better with the Norman's than the piety of a Saxon.

Edmund, went to defend England against invading heathens, lost, got taken prisoner, got his head cut off by blokes with funny names and big beards. Hmm, yeah, that resonates down the ages done it?
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