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Newbury Today Forum _ Random Rants _ Why do Armchair Anarchists think Raoul Moat is now a cult hero?

Posted by: Irish John Jul 15 2010, 09:00 AM

Those with far too much time on their Facebook twittering hands appear to be promoting a mentally unstable deadman to cult hero status. Facebook are refusing to delete said deadman's account. However despite Facebook's shameless self promotion (of which they need little anyway) why would a country get behind another pathetic gunmen in a long line of pathetic english gunmen? Would the same people be praising the Hungerford massacre had it happened now? Discuss...

Posted by: Jayjay Jul 15 2010, 09:35 AM

These are not my views, just why I think, without reading Facebook, people have sympathy. The authorities were warned of his intentions before he left prison and did nothing about it. He himself asked various times for help and nothing was done. His girlfriend, knowing he hated police, made believe she had dumped him for a Policeman. The police were 2 foot away, with his gun pointed at his own head, when they tasered him and possibly made him pull the trigger.

It was awful to see a human being hunted down like a rabid dog but there is no black and white in this case. Mistakes were made yes, but at the end of the day he was a killer and his death by his own hand or a police marksman was inevitable.

Posted by: Iommi Jul 15 2010, 10:04 AM

Hear, hear, Jayjay, I also feel this is not black and white. There is something about this that smells of c0ck-up.

I do feel for the policeman and (and his family) that was badly injured though.

Regrettably, I think this is something that has happened through time. Bad men turned into cult heroes. I remember a distasteful song some people would sing in the 70s about 'so-and-so' being 'our friend' because 'he killed coppers'.

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Jul 15 2010, 10:56 AM

QUOTE (Iommi @ Jul 15 2010, 11:04 AM) *
Hear, hear, Jayjay, I also feel this is not black and white. There is something about this that smells of c0ck-up.

I do feel for the policeman and (and his family) that was badly injured though.

Regrettably, I think this is something that has happened through time. Bad men turned into cult heroes. I remember a distasteful song some people would sing in the 70s about someone being 'our' friend' because he killed coppers.


If the Police had not held press conferences every 10 minutes and ordered in armoured cars, the SAS, Tornado fighters and hundreds of officers to hunt down 1 man then perhaps he would not have this cult 'status'. They made him into Billy the Kid. You reap what you sow.

Posted by: Iommi Jul 15 2010, 11:01 AM

Notwithstanding 24/7 Sky/BBC coverage.

Posted by: Good Boy Racer Jul 15 2010, 11:31 AM

If you want my honest opinion to all this, i do feel sorry for him.

Now i don't think anyone is accepting him as a hero for killing a copper and his girlfriend, i'm not. Their accepting him as a 'Legend' because he managed to get away from the Police for a week in just one area! They are also feeling slightly sorry for him, because they know he could of got help, he could be in prison right now doing time for what he did, allowing the victims family to have closure because they know he is suffering in prison.

What amazes me from the Police is this... They did not even tell the family that he was coming out of Prison!!! The police knew he was a threat when he came out, it only took him 2 or 3 days to get a shotgun and do what he did!

He asked for psychiatric help months before it happened because he wanted to know if he had a problem and they declined!

Just another thing, when you get shot by a taser gun, the idea of it is to paralise you completely so no muscle in your body can be used. Did the taser gun really clutch his fingers which made him pull the trigger? Very much doubt that! Just remember we're talking about the Police and the Media here... Police work together and can hide information, not forgetting the media. They don't tell you everything you know.

Posted by: ossy1 Jul 15 2010, 12:56 PM

good boy racer perhaps you should actually take notice of the news. He did not kill a police officer or his ex he killed her partner!

Posted by: tim Jul 15 2010, 12:58 PM

By shooting himself he has saved tax-payers a fortune . If Moat had been imprisoned for murder he would be serving a life sentence costing thousands of tax-payers money. No cult hero, just a dead murderer who has ruined the lives of the surviving familys of his victims.

Posted by: Rosewinelover Jul 15 2010, 01:10 PM

They made him into Billy the Kid. You reap what you sow.

Totally agree with this.


Posted by: Good Boy Racer Jul 15 2010, 01:37 PM

QUOTE (ossy1 @ Jul 15 2010, 01:56 PM) *
good boy racer perhaps you should actually take notice of the news. He did not kill a police officer or his ex he killed her partner!


Hehe, well like i said, the media dont tell you everything and they always gets mixed up. I was told the police officer lived with injury to his face and both partners got killed.




Posted by: Iommi Jul 15 2010, 01:53 PM

QUOTE (tim @ Jul 15 2010, 01:58 PM) *
By shooting himself he has saved tax-payers a fortune.

Assuming he did, unaided, shoot himself.

Posted by: ossy1 Jul 15 2010, 01:59 PM

QUOTE (Good Boy Racer @ Jul 15 2010, 02:37 PM) *
Hehe, well like i said, the media dont tell you everything and they always gets mixed up. I was told the police officer lived with injury to his face and both partners got killed.
j

Perhaps you should actually read or watch the news yourself. They have never said she was dead. The police officer was shot twice as a result he has been blinded.



Posted by: Good Boy Racer Jul 15 2010, 02:15 PM

QUOTE (ossy1 @ Jul 15 2010, 02:59 PM) *
j

Perhaps you should actually read or watch the news yourself. They have never said she was dead. The police officer was shot twice as a result he has been blinded.


OMG your right!

Posted by: Chris_At_The_Retreat Jul 15 2010, 03:47 PM

Wasn't Moat related to Keith Chegwin?

Posted by: Jayjay Jul 15 2010, 05:29 PM

QUOTE (Good Boy Racer @ Jul 15 2010, 12:31 PM) *
Just another thing, when you get shot by a taser gun, the idea of it is to paralise you completely so no muscle in your body can be used. Did the taser gun really clutch his fingers which made him pull the trigger? Very much doubt that! Just remember we're talking about the Police and the Media here... Police work together and can hide information, not forgetting the media. They don't tell you everything you know.


Police and media seem to be in agreement that a) he was tasered and cool.gif he shot himself. If the taser didn't cause him to spasm and shoot himself, you are saying the police shot him while he was incapable?

Posted by: ossy1 Jul 15 2010, 06:03 PM

QUOTE (Jayjay @ Jul 15 2010, 06:29 PM) *
Police and media seem to be in agreement that a) he was tasered and cool.gif he shot himself. If the taser didn't cause him to spasm and shoot himself, you are saying the police shot him while he was incapable?



Theory = you assume he was incapable because he shot himself? A person who has been shot is not always incapable. If he was tasered after shooting himself maybe it was to incapacitate him in order to move in and treat him.
After all if any of you paid attention to the media reports you are expertly commenting on you will note he did NOT die at the scene, he died in hospital. He was taken to hospital by an ambulance. They would have had to have been sure he was not in a position to harm them.

We can all speculate but none of us really know the answers. What I do know is one man is dead and two others seriously injured as a result of his actions. He is not a Hero.

Posted by: Iommi Jul 15 2010, 06:25 PM

QUOTE (ossy1 @ Jul 15 2010, 07:03 PM) *
After all if any of you paid attention to the media reports you are expertly commenting on you will note he did NOT die at the scene, he died in hospital. He was taken to hospital by an ambulance. They would have had to have been sure he was not in a position to harm them.

He was pronounced dead at the hospital, but that doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't dead at the scene. It is all speculation at the moment. Although I know it would not have made a pretty scene, it seems odd they carried Moat with a blanket over his head if he were alive.

Posted by: ossy1 Jul 15 2010, 06:34 PM

QUOTE (Iommi @ Jul 15 2010, 07:25 PM) *
He was pronounced dead at the hospital, but that doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't dead at the scene. It is all speculation at the moment. Although I know it would not have made a pretty scene, it seems odd they carried Moat with a blanket over his head if he were alive.


Given that he shot himself in the neck perhaps to hide injury from the circling vultures maybe. However upon approaching him they still do not know he is dead.

Posted by: Chelsea Greg Jul 15 2010, 07:38 PM

QUOTE (Chris_At_The_Retreat @ Jul 15 2010, 04:47 PM) *
Wasn't Moat related to Keith Chegwin?


I heard that too but can't find anything online. Can someone confirm this with a link?

Posted by: regor Jul 15 2010, 07:55 PM

Re ossy 1 - various posts

Sir, your posts are a mixture of half truths, misinterpretations, obfuscations and conflations. I do beg you to be-gone, be-silent and nget you hence from this forum

I know you are alleged to be a police officer but I suspect you are a politician, spin doctor or some other kind of proffesional misinformer

Posted by: ossy1 Jul 15 2010, 08:31 PM

QUOTE (regor @ Jul 15 2010, 08:55 PM) *
Re ossy 1 - various posts

Sir, your posts are a mixture of half truths, misinterpretations, obfuscations and conflations. I do beg you to be-gone, be-silent and nget you hence from this forum

I know you are alleged to be a police officer but I suspect you are a politician, spin doctor or some other kind of proffesional misinformer


You may wish to address me correctly if you don't mind.
How is it everyone keeps banging on about being entitled to their opinion on here except I am not??? I find your post rather bullying and offensive towards me along with most other members actually. As such you are right on one count above I shall not bother with this forum and find a more adult one.

Posted by: Strafin Jul 15 2010, 08:40 PM

Whether Ossy is a police employee or not is irrelevant, all of our posts are based on speculation, hearsay and normally unsubstantiated evidence. No matter how right we think we are.

Posted by: dannyboy Jul 15 2010, 08:52 PM

QUOTE (regor @ Jul 15 2010, 08:55 PM) *
Re ossy 1 - various posts

Sir, your posts are a mixture of half truths, misinterpretations, obfuscations and conflations. I do beg you to be-gone, be-silent and nget you hence from this forum

I know you are alleged to be a police officer but I suspect you are a politician, spin doctor or some other kind of proffesional misinformer

Nice. What a tosser thing to post Roger.

Posted by: Roost Jul 15 2010, 09:18 PM

QUOTE (regor @ Jul 15 2010, 08:55 PM) *
Re ossy 1 - various posts

Sir, your posts are a mixture of half truths, misinterpretations, obfuscations and conflations. I do beg you to be-gone, be-silent and nget you hence from this forum

I know you are alleged to be a police officer but I suspect you are a politician, spin doctor or some other kind of proffesional misinformer


Sir,

In response to your post I must point out that it is incredibly difficult, nay, impossible to take seriously the mad ranting of an individual who is seemingly incapable of spelling some of the more basic words in the modern language currently known as English.

Cheers Geez!
tongue.gif


Posted by: gardeb Jul 15 2010, 09:54 PM

Moat spent time in prison for his own doings.
His mental instability appears to have been created likewise by his use of drugs.
Why is it necessary to question everyone else.
All of his problems were created by himself.

We now have a society where no one takes personal responsibility and everything is someone elses fault. To these people he was a hero because he challenged authority and outran it for a few days. To them he was a reminder of some video game hero they play against each day at my expense.
How many people like this are on ITV at 9.30 every morning ? If the authorities followed up each threat there would be no time to do any other work.

Again his fault and he lost. At least I dont have to keep him.

Posted by: Iommi Jul 15 2010, 10:23 PM

Regardless of right or wrong, we need to be sure that the Police acted correctly. Like I said before, this isn't the first time a crook has been held by a minority, as some kind of hero. Look who are the most interesting characters in the media. Even in film, it's all about the villain.

Posted by: Jayjay Jul 15 2010, 10:30 PM

QUOTE (ossy1 @ Jul 15 2010, 07:03 PM) *
Theory = you assume he was incapable because he shot himself? A person who has been shot is not always incapable. If he was tasered after shooting himself maybe it was to incapacitate him in order to move in and treat him.
After all if any of you paid attention to the media reports you are expertly commenting on you will note he did NOT die at the scene, he died in hospital. He was taken to hospital by an ambulance. They would have had to have been sure he was not in a position to harm them.

We can all speculate but none of us really know the answers. What I do know is one man is dead and two others seriously injured as a result of his actions. He is not a Hero.


Sorry but I DO pay attention and the inquest said Police tasered him to stop him shooting himself.

Posted by: Iommi Jul 15 2010, 10:38 PM

QUOTE (Jayjay @ Jul 15 2010, 11:30 PM) *
Sorry but I DO pay attention and the inquest said Police tasered him to stop him shooting himself.

Has there been an inquest?

"Mr Reynolds told the hearing in Newcastle that it was not yet clear whether the devices were used before or after Moat pulled the trigger."

http://www.halifaxcourier.co.uk/news/Raoul-Moat-was-Tasered-by.6420910.jp

Posted by: Good Boy Racer Jul 16 2010, 08:12 AM

QUOTE (regor @ Jul 15 2010, 08:55 PM) *
Re ossy 1 - various posts

Sir, your posts are a mixture of half truths, misinterpretations, obfuscations and conflations. I do beg you to be-gone, be-silent and nget you hence from this forum

I know you are alleged to be a police officer but I suspect you are a politician, spin doctor or some other kind of proffesional misinformer



I thought this too, funny that smile.gif

Posted by: Rosewinelover Jul 16 2010, 08:22 AM

After thinking about this last night and reading up about Moat and what witnesses have said, I feel only hatred for the man. He killed somebody and left his family without a son,dad, brother etc. He use to make his 4 year old daughter sit outside with a plaque around her neck saying 'i have been naughty' for 2 hours which is just awful. It was only the fact a neighbour called the police that it was stopped. He was a grass to the police and so he himself got away with criminal activity.

I actually don't know how anyone can feel sorry for someone who kills another person in cold blood. Imagine if that was your son/brother/dad. Yes he may of had mental problems, which I know I don't know enough about to make judgement, but IMO he was a nasty, bully, coward. I'm glad he killed himself, it saves us paying for him to be alive.

Posted by: dannyboy Jul 16 2010, 09:35 AM

He use to make his 4 year old daughter sit outside with a plaque around her neck saying 'i have been naughty' for 2 hours which is just awful

It could have been worse - he could have sent her to sew the soles on cheap trainers of forage in the local tip. But that is okay though, isn't it?

Posted by: Rosewinelover Jul 16 2010, 10:10 AM

QUOTE (dannyboy @ Jul 16 2010, 10:35 AM) *
He use to make his 4 year old daughter sit outside with a plaque around her neck saying 'i have been naughty' for 2 hours which is just awful

It could have been worse - he could have sent her to sew the soles on cheap trainers of forage in the local tip. But that is okay though, isn't it?


In another country I wouldn't of been surprised dry.gif

Posted by: dannyboy Jul 16 2010, 10:30 AM

QUOTE (Rosewinelover @ Jul 16 2010, 11:10 AM) *
In another country I wouldn't of been surprised dry.gif

In other countries you can got to stonings too.

Posted by: Rosewinelover Jul 16 2010, 10:47 AM

QUOTE (dannyboy @ Jul 16 2010, 11:30 AM) *
In other countries you can got to stonings too.


Eh?

Posted by: dannyboy Jul 16 2010, 10:54 AM

QUOTE (Rosewinelover @ Jul 16 2010, 11:47 AM) *
Eh?

You expressed a wish to stone to death an ill man. In other countries you'd be able to go and watch such a spectacle.

Posted by: Rosewinelover Jul 16 2010, 10:58 AM

QUOTE (dannyboy @ Jul 16 2010, 11:54 AM) *
You expressed a wish to stone to death an ill man. In other countries you'd be able to go and watch such a spectacle.


Ah, so the Yorkshire Ripper is ill is he....mmmmm

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Jul 16 2010, 11:14 AM

QUOTE (Rosewinelover @ Jul 16 2010, 11:58 AM) *
Ah, so the Yorkshire Ripper is ill is he....mmmmm


Do gooders will always be on the side of such evil men I am afraid. DannyBoy fits that bill. I think we ought to get him to dress up as a trannie and go pay Mr Sutcliffe a visit. laugh.gif
It would be a good way of seeing if he had been 'rehabilitated'

Posted by: Rosewinelover Jul 16 2010, 11:17 AM

QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jul 16 2010, 12:14 PM) *
Do gooders will always be on the side of such evil men I am afraid. DannyBoy fits that bill. I think we ought to get him to dress up as a trannie and go pay Mr Sutcliffe a visit. laugh.gif
It would be a good way of seeing if he had been 'rehabilitated'


laugh.gif laugh.gif

Posted by: On the edge Jul 16 2010, 11:24 AM

I'd hate to be a copper right now. Doesn't matter what you do, its wrong. Put a lot of effort in - wrong, don't doo too much - wrong. Given the clear skills and knowledge of the various pundits on this thread I'm surprised Lord Lucan is still missing! I'm rather glad that the vast majority in this Country don't think like that and applaud the Prime Minister for voicing those concerns.

Posted by: dannyboy Jul 16 2010, 11:45 AM

QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jul 16 2010, 12:14 PM) *
Do gooders will always be on the side of such evil men I am afraid. DannyBoy fits that bill. I think we ought to get him to dress up as a trannie and go pay Mr Sutcliffe a visit. laugh.gif
It would be a good way of seeing if he had been 'rehabilitated'

Err, where did I say he should be let out? Or that he had been rehabilitated?

Rather twisted that you think a 'trannie' should be used to test a disturbed man's state of mind.

Posted by: dannyboy Jul 16 2010, 11:47 AM

QUOTE (Rosewinelover @ Jul 16 2010, 11:58 AM) *
Ah, so the Yorkshire Ripper is ill is he....mmmmm

Broadmoor is a hospital.

He has Schizophrenia and has been recieving medical treatment for this for some years. His 'progress' with this treatment was the basis of his appeal. But, if you had read the article, you'd know this.

Posted by: Iommi Jul 16 2010, 12:00 PM

QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jul 16 2010, 12:14 PM) *
Do gooders will always be on the side of such evil men I am afraid. DannyBoy fits that bill. I think we ought to get him to dress up as a trannie and go pay Mr Sutcliffe a visit. laugh.gif
It would be a good way of seeing if he had been 'rehabilitated'

Just to take issue with the 'opinions' you post...what is a do-gooder and where do people on here side with evil men?

Posted by: Rosewinelover Jul 16 2010, 12:17 PM

QUOTE (dannyboy @ Jul 16 2010, 12:47 PM) *
Broadmoor is a hospital.

He has Schizophrenia and has been recieving medical treatment for this for some years. His 'progress' with this treatment was the basis of his appeal. But, if you had read the article, you'd know this.


I have read the article (i think YOU need to still read up on what we were discussing on the other thread). I do know where he is.
I don't care what he apparantly has. He didn't have schizophrenia when he was a working lad, getting married, living a 'normal' life - but he suddenly did when in court for 13 murders. Anyone can say they hear voices and god told them to kill if trying to escape a murder charge.

Posted by: Iommi Jul 16 2010, 12:19 PM

QUOTE (Rosewinelover @ Jul 16 2010, 01:17 PM) *
He didn't have schizophrenia when he was a working lad, getting married, living a 'normal' life

How do you know?

Posted by: Rosewinelover Jul 16 2010, 12:27 PM

QUOTE (Iommi @ Jul 16 2010, 01:19 PM) *
How do you know?


Because surely an illness so serious would have been spotted? Mmmm I don't know. I am guessing. What I am saying is he suddenly declared he heard voices and God told him to kill the women when he was caught. You didn't hear him asking for help before he deicded to kill the women.

Posted by: Rosewinelover Jul 16 2010, 12:32 PM

Also he killed the women over a period of years, not like the cases I have heard in the news before where someone with schizophrenia has randomly just killed someone. That is why I just think he is an evil man. He knew what he was doing when he killed the women, unlike someone who is mentally ill and kills randomly without thinking.

Posted by: Bloggo Jul 16 2010, 12:35 PM

QUOTE (Rosewinelover @ Jul 16 2010, 01:27 PM) *
Because surely an illness so serious would have been spotted? Mmmm I don't know. I am guessing. What I am saying is he suddenly declared he heard voices and God told him to kill the women when he was caught. You didn't hear him asking for help before he deicded to kill the women.

He is obviously a very sick person who brutally killed 13 women, some with a screw driver and then mutilated their bodies. His behaviour was inhuman.
Whether or not he has responded to "treatment" or not he is a very real and potential danger to the public and as such should be locked up for life.
I would have voted to hang him.

Posted by: Rosewinelover Jul 16 2010, 12:39 PM

QUOTE (Bloggo @ Jul 16 2010, 01:35 PM) *
He is obviously a very sick person who brutally killed 13 women, some with a screw driver and then mutilated their bodies. His behaviour was inhuman.
Whether or not he has responded to "treatment" or not he is a very real and potential danger to the public and as such should be locked up for life.
I would have voted to hang him.


Agree, he was sick whatever way someone wants to put it.

Posted by: Good Boy Racer Jul 16 2010, 12:47 PM

Hey you guys!!!

Shall we go kill a women? I'm starting to hear voices...

Posted by: Rosewinelover Jul 16 2010, 12:55 PM

QUOTE (Good Boy Racer @ Jul 16 2010, 01:47 PM) *
Hey you guys!!!

Shall we go kill a women? I'm starting to hear voices...


Thats going to be my excuse when I kill the neighbours cat for keep poohing on my lawn tongue.gif

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Jul 16 2010, 01:05 PM

QUOTE (dannyboy @ Jul 16 2010, 12:45 PM) *
Err, where did I say he should be let out? Or that he had been rehabilitated?

Rather twisted that you think a 'trannie' should be used to test a disturbed man's state of mind.


Dannyboy - Get a grip man. It was a joke on YOUR expense. People have differing views on subjects like this. If he had killed my Mum I'd still want him dead. And I'd quite happily perform the task in hand. Its is not one of those cases where there is any doubt about his guilt in any case. The man was / is evil and deserves his life in jail at the very least.

You appear to belong to the group of people that is in the 'forgive and forget' mentality. It's not one that I agree with personally but you do have the right to free speech.

Posted by: Andy Jul 16 2010, 01:06 PM

QUOTE (Rosewinelover @ Jul 16 2010, 01:39 PM) *
Agree, he was sick whatever way someone wants to put it.


hmmmm...."was sick". Freudian slip maybe? wink.gif

Posted by: Rosewinelover Jul 16 2010, 01:11 PM

QUOTE (Andy @ Jul 16 2010, 02:06 PM) *
hmmmm...."was sick". Freudian slip maybe? wink.gif


Is sick!!!


Posted by: Andy Jul 16 2010, 01:19 PM

QUOTE (Rosewinelover @ Jul 16 2010, 02:11 PM) *
Is sick!!!


Oh...and he was diagnosed as suffering from schizophrenia soon after his incaceration.

There are many schizophrenics who live "normal" lives in society with the help of controlling drugs.l

Posted by: Bloggo Jul 16 2010, 01:24 PM

QUOTE (Andy @ Jul 16 2010, 02:19 PM) *
Oh...and he was diagnosed as suffering from schizophrenia soon after his incaceration.

There are many schizophrenics who live "normal" lives in society with the help of controlling drugs.l

True, however some "forget" to take their medication and revert back to their unstable position. I believe someone was killed recently in these circumstances.
I don't think it would be in the public interest to take the risk with Sutcliff.

Posted by: Iommi Jul 16 2010, 01:25 PM

QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jul 16 2010, 02:05 PM) *
You appear to belong to the group of people that is in the 'forgive and forget' mentality. It's not one that I agree with personally but you do have the right to free speech.

I've seen no evidence of dannyboy having a forgive and forget mentality. I have seen evidence of you and others misunderstanding what people like dannyboy and myself, amongst others, say.

Anyway, what is a do-gooder?

And who sides with evil men on here?

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Jul 16 2010, 01:33 PM

QUOTE (Iommi @ Jul 16 2010, 02:25 PM) *
I've seen no evidence of dannyboy having a forgive and forget mentality. I have seen evidence of you and others misunderstanding what people like dannyboy and myself, amongst others, say.

Anyway, what is a do-gooder?

And who sides with evil men on here?


I am happy to agree to disagree with you Iommi. This is a forum and I express my views like you do. Peter Sutcliffe Murdered a lot of people. I would never like to see him released. Other people may disagree and think that offenders like this can be released back in society. I don't believe that it is worth the risk. I also disagree with the Government in the way they are going to release large numbers of habitual offenders back into society. It's we who will pay for this. I'd like to see 200,000 prison places available and penalties to be toughened for offenders. I'd quite happily pay a little more income tax for this to happen.

Posted by: Rosewinelover Jul 16 2010, 01:36 PM

I have seen evidence of you and others misunderstanding what people like dannyboy and myself, amongst others, say.

What is it your trying to say then?

Posted by: Bloggo Jul 16 2010, 01:36 PM

QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jul 16 2010, 02:33 PM) *
I am happy to agree to disagree with you Iommi. This is a forum and I express my views like you do. Peter Sutcliffe Murdered a lot of people. I would never like to see him released. Other people may disagree and think that offenders like this can be released back in society. I don't believe that it is worth the risk. I also disagree with the Government in the way they are going to release large numbers of habitual offenders back into society. It's we who will pay for this. I'd like to see 200,000 prison places available and penalties to be toughened for offenders. I'd quite happily pay a little more income tax for this to happen.

I agree. More gaols and tougher sentencing.

Posted by: Rosewinelover Jul 16 2010, 01:41 PM

QUOTE (Andy @ Jul 16 2010, 02:19 PM) *
Oh...and he was diagnosed as suffering from schizophrenia soon after his incaceration.

There are many schizophrenics who live "normal" lives in society with the help of controlling drugs.l


But before that he was trying to say he heard voices and God told him to kill and it wasn't believed/proven...... I don't hear of many schizophernics killing masses of people though, do you?
And let's just hope they get treatment before they decide to kill!

Posted by: gardeb Jul 16 2010, 02:09 PM

For once it looks as if the Judicial sytem is going to work on Sutcliffe, until the European Court Of Human Rights gets involved. A no doubt it will.

He should have hung.

Posted by: Andy Jul 16 2010, 02:28 PM

QUOTE (Rosewinelover @ Jul 16 2010, 02:41 PM) *
But before that he was trying to say he heard voices and God told him to kill and it wasn't believed/proven

One of the major symptoms of Schizophrenia!!!

QUOTE (Rosewinelover @ Jul 16 2010, 02:41 PM) *
I don't hear of many schizophernics killing masses of people though, do you?

Just try typing Schizophrenic killer into Google. There are a multitude of examples

QUOTE (Rosewinelover @ Jul 16 2010, 02:41 PM) *
And let's just hope they get treatment before they decide to kill!


As an example....76 in 10 years (Schizophrenia & Psychosis) up until last June and these are just the known documented cases.

http://www.people.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/2009/06/14/shocking-number-of-murders-committed-by-mental-patients-93463-21439233/

Posted by: Iommi Jul 16 2010, 02:47 PM

QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jul 16 2010, 02:33 PM) *
I am happy to agree to disagree with you Iommi. This is a forum and I express my views like you do.

I am not denying you that, nor do I resent it.

I just want to see the proof that people on here, side with evil men and to know what a do-gooder is. If you can back it up then that is fine, but I am suspicious of you and others making false claims. You are free to ignore me if you wish.

Posted by: dannyboy Jul 16 2010, 02:48 PM

QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Jul 16 2010, 02:05 PM) *
You appear to belong to the group of people that is in the 'forgive and forget' mentality. It's not one that I agree with personally but you do have the right to free speech.

Nope. He should remain in Hospital. He is a sick & dangerous man. Sick, as in ill & therefore in need of treatment.
I don't agree with the lynch mob mentality of capital punishment. Bloggo is happy to accept that a few innocent people would go to the gallows. No thanks.

Posted by: Bloggo Jul 16 2010, 02:55 PM

QUOTE (dannyboy @ Jul 16 2010, 03:48 PM) *
Nope. He should remain in Hospital. He is a sick & dangerous man. Sick, as in ill & therefore in need of treatment.
I don't agree with the lynch mob mentality of capital punishment. Bloggo is happy to accept that a few innocent people would go to the gallows. No thanks.

I respect your view.
A few innocent people may go to the gallows and I can't deny that. However I believe it would save the lives of countless others from being willfully slaughtered by criminals for whom prison is not a deterent.

Posted by: Iommi Jul 16 2010, 03:00 PM

QUOTE (Bloggo @ Jul 16 2010, 03:55 PM) *
I respect your view. A few innocent people may go to the gallows and I can't deny that. However I believe it would save the lives of countless others from being willfully slaughtered by criminals for whom prison is not a deterent.

If someone has been sent to the gallows, then that suggests that they have already committed the crime. My understanding is that people who are determined to kill are not put-off by the prospect of capitol punishment. Indeed, people who are, just enlist the vulnerable to their dirty work for them.

Posted by: Bloggo Jul 16 2010, 03:07 PM

QUOTE (Iommi @ Jul 16 2010, 04:00 PM) *
If someone has been sent to the gallows, then that suggests that they have already committed the crime.

Yes and there will always be some that either think the risk is worth it or just don't care.
QUOTE
My understanding is that people who are determined to kill are not put-off by the prospect of capitol punishment.

Maybe but those that kill because there is no deterent that they fear would be stopped by the fear of being hung.
QUOTE
Indeed, people who are, just enlist the vulnerable to their dirty work for them.

How do you know that. Have an example?

Posted by: Iommi Jul 16 2010, 04:25 PM

QUOTE (Bloggo @ Jul 16 2010, 04:07 PM) *
Yes and there will always be some that either think the risk is worth it or just don't care. Maybe but those that kill because there is no deterent that they fear would be stopped by the fear of being hung. How do you know that. Have an example?

I'd like to ask you the same question with your outlook on this.

The reason I know, is that is what I would do to avoid the gallows. That's what gangsters did and do.

A while back, a footballer was found to be involved in a extortion scandal - he was 'ordered' to pay protection money. There was a bloke from a member of the gang who said that, if he was 'ordered' to go and kill someone, he would. He wouldn't want to, but he said if he refused, he or his family would get it instead.

This is just one off the top of my head.

Posted by: dannyboy Jul 16 2010, 04:55 PM

QUOTE (Bloggo @ Jul 16 2010, 03:55 PM) *
I respect your view.
A few innocent people may go to the gallows and I can't deny that. However I believe it would save the lives of countless others from being willfully slaughtered by criminals for whom prison is not a deterent.

'Slaughtered by criminals?'. A byline worthy of the NotW.

apart from police killers, the only other category of murderer you think should be hung are child killers & serial killers. Both the exact type of person likely to be mentally disturbed when carrying out their crimes.
If you really do think that the death penalty is the only deterent that will make killers think twice, I would suggest that those who are not in full control of their faculties in the first place are unlikely to consider the consequences of their actions.

Now a mugger, burglar, etc etc who is not aversed to the use of violence might think twice before arming themselves to aid their criminal activity. Yet this class of criminal isn't on your list of those to face the death penalty.


Posted by: Jayjay Jul 16 2010, 08:02 PM

QUOTE (Iommi @ Jul 15 2010, 11:38 PM) *
Has there been an inquest?

"Mr Reynolds told the hearing in Newcastle that it was not yet clear whether the devices were used before or after Moat pulled the trigger."

http://www.halifaxcourier.co.uk/news/Raoul-Moat-was-Tasered-by.6420910.jp


The inquest into the death of gunman Raoul Moat, who died after a six-hour standoff with police, today heard that he was shot by two officers with Taser guns.

Steve Reynolds, senior investigator at the Independent Police Complaints Commission, told the hearing in Newcastle upon Tyne that the officers, from West Yorkshire police, discharged their Tasers in an apparent attempt to prevent Moat from killing himself.

Posted by: user23 Jul 16 2010, 08:06 PM

QUOTE (Bloggo @ Jul 16 2010, 03:55 PM) *
A few innocent people may go to the gallows and I can't deny that. However I believe it would save the lives of countless others from being willfully slaughtered by criminals for whom prison is not a deterent.
I very much doubt brining back the death penalty would deter the common or garden nutter from going on the rampage as they generally do themselves in, in the end.

What's without question is that more innocent people would die at the hands of the state.

Posted by: Iommi Jul 16 2010, 08:27 PM

QUOTE (Jayjay @ Jul 16 2010, 09:02 PM) *
The inquest into the death of gunman Raoul Moat, who died after a six-hour standoff with police, today heard that he was shot by two officers with Taser guns.

Steve Reynolds, senior investigator at the Independent Police Complaints Commission, told the hearing in Newcastle upon Tyne that the officers, from West Yorkshire police, discharged their Tasers in an apparent attempt to prevent Moat from killing himself.

Your quote implies that an inquest had been held, but this isn't the case. It is on-going. That is why I questioned it.

QUOTE (Jayjay @ Jul 15 2010, 11:30 PM) *
Sorry but I DO pay attention and the inquest said Police tasered him to stop him shooting himself.

This Steve Reynolds fella as a part of the IPCC and doesn't speak for the inquest. He also claimed that it is unclear whether the tazers were used before or after the shooting.

Posted by: Bloggo Jul 19 2010, 11:05 AM

QUOTE (dannyboy @ Jul 16 2010, 05:55 PM) *
'Slaughtered by criminals?'. A byline worthy of the NotW.

Sorry, don't understand "NotW"
QUOTE
apart from police killers, the only other category of murderer you think should be hung are child killers & serial killers. Both the exact type of person likely to be mentally disturbed when carrying out their crimes.
If you really do think that the death penalty is the only deterent that will make killers think twice, I would suggest that those who are not in full control of their faculties in the first place are unlikely to consider the consequences of their actions.

Yes and your point is?
QUOTE
Now a mugger, burglar, etc etc who is not aversed to the use of violence might think twice before arming themselves to aid their criminal activity. Yet this class of criminal isn't on your list of those to face the death penalty.

You're right, I'll add them to the list.

Posted by: Bobby Gillespie Jul 19 2010, 11:15 AM

QUOTE (Rosewinelover @ Jul 16 2010, 02:41 PM) *
But before that he was trying to say he heard voices and God told him to kill and it wasn't believed/proven......


Wasn't that the great Lizard King himself; David Icke? Lizards, lizards everywhere. Loaded.

Posted by: Bloggo Jul 19 2010, 12:05 PM

QUOTE (Iommi @ Jul 16 2010, 05:25 PM) *
I'd like to ask you the same question with your outlook on this.

Well, I have said previously, this is my believe.
QUOTE
The reason I know, is that is what I would do to avoid the gallows. That's what gangsters did and do.

Probably true but I don't think it changes anything.
QUOTE
A while back, a footballer was found to be involved in a extortion scandal - he was 'ordered' to pay protection money.

Not sure the relavance of this?
QUOTE
There was a bloke from a member of the gang who said that, if he was 'ordered' to go and kill someone, he would. He wouldn't want to, but he said if he refused, he or his family would get it instead.

Again, I don't think this changes my argument. The chap could have chosen to go to the police rather than kill against his will.


Posted by: Iommi Jul 19 2010, 01:21 PM

QUOTE (Bloggo @ Jul 19 2010, 01:05 PM) *
Not sure the relavance of this?

It's connected with the next passage.

QUOTE (Bloggo @ Jul 19 2010, 01:05 PM) *
Again, I don't think this changes my argument. The chap could have chosen to go to the police rather than kill against his will.

You sound ignorant of how life in the inner city works. Going to the bill could just possibly be the worst move you make if you value your family's well being.

Posted by: Bloggo Jul 19 2010, 01:35 PM

QUOTE (Iommi @ Jul 19 2010, 02:21 PM) *
It's connected with the next passage.


You sound ignorant of how life in the inner city works. Going to the bill could just possibly be the worst move you make if you value your family.

No, I am not ignorant, as you charmingly put it, about inner city life. I grew up there.
The point I make is that the chap you talk about would in my world risk the death penalty by killing under orders or risk retribution from the gang by going to the police.
There is no excuse for wantonly taking the life of an innocent person.

It is a pity that we live in a world where someone may have to make that choice but that is another debate.

Posted by: Iommi Jul 19 2010, 01:46 PM

QUOTE (Bloggo @ Jul 19 2010, 02:35 PM) *
No, I am not ignorant, as you charmingly put it, about inner city life. I grew up there.

Which might have been a different place than now. You objected to my word ignorant, what word would you suggest I use to mean the same thing?

QUOTE (Bloggo @ Jul 19 2010, 02:35 PM) *
The point I make is that the chap you talk about would in my world risk the death penalty by killing under orders or risk retribution from the gang by going to the police. There is no excuse for wantonly taking the life of an innocent person.

There might not be for a level headed person like you, but not everyone thinks and behaves like you. These people I'm talking about are black gangs, possibly the post deprived members of inner city life.

QUOTE (Bloggo @ Jul 19 2010, 02:35 PM) *
It is a pity that we live in a world where someone may have to make that choice but that is another debate.

I don't think it is, it is all connected. Like I said, in your world, it is possible the vulnerable are the ones most effected.

Posted by: Bloggo Jul 19 2010, 02:09 PM

QUOTE (Iommi @ Jul 19 2010, 02:46 PM) *
Which might have been a different place than now. You objected to my word ignorant, what word would you suggest I use to mean the same thing?

Yes, It was different then as we were probably less well informed and I don't recall the same incidence of knife and gun crime. Also crimes against children were rarer. Maybe it was the same but we just did not hear about it.
How about "ill informed" or "misled"?
QUOTE
There might not be for a level headed person like you, but not everyone thinks and behaves like you. These people I'm talking about are black gangs, possibly the post deprived members of inner city life.

It is probably no advisable to single out a specific group of gang memebers here as someone will, no doubt, take exception. But I understand your view.
QUOTE
I don't think it is, it is all connected. Like I said, in your world, it is possible the vulnerable are the ones most effected.

Well again I understand what you are saying but I do stand by my original statement regarding the neccessity for the reinstatement of Capital punishment.

Posted by: dannyboy Jul 19 2010, 02:24 PM

QUOTE (Bloggo @ Jul 19 2010, 12:05 PM) *
Sorry, don't understand "NotW"

Yes and your point is?

You're right, I'll add them to the list.

News of the World.

I can't be bothered to explain it - it was pretty clear to start with.

Posted by: Bloggo Jul 19 2010, 02:38 PM

QUOTE (dannyboy @ Jul 19 2010, 03:24 PM) *
News of the World.

I can't be bothered to explain it - it was pretty clear to start with.

OK, suits me.

Posted by: Iommi Jul 19 2010, 03:00 PM

QUOTE (Bloggo @ Jul 19 2010, 03:09 PM) *
Yes, It was different then as we were probably less well informed and I don't recall the same incidence of knife and gun crime. Also crimes against children were rarer. Maybe it was the same but we just did not hear about it. How about "ill informed" or "misled"?

The word would need to mean 'unknown to you' - which is what ignorant means. Your suggestions mean to be told something inaccurate, which isn't the same thing. Ignorant doesn't have to be a pejorative term. People misuse the word to mean incapable of learning, which as far as I know, is not the case.

QUOTE (Bloggo @ Jul 19 2010, 03:09 PM) *
It is probably no advisable to single out a specific group of gang memebers here as someone will, no doubt, take exception. But I understand your view.

The ethnicity is simply for this example. The example was in this case about a black gang. It could easily be any other group of people.

QUOTE (Bloggo @ Jul 19 2010, 03:09 PM) *
Well again I understand what you are saying but I do stand by my original statement regarding the neccessity for the reinstatement of Capital punishment.

I'm simply saying, the vulnerable will be hit hardest, yet they might not be the ones that need dealing with.

Posted by: Bloggo Jul 19 2010, 03:05 PM

QUOTE (Iommi @ Jul 19 2010, 04:00 PM) *
The word would need to mean 'unknown to you' - which is what ignorant means. Your suggestions mean to be told something inaccurate, which isn't the same thing. Ignorant doesn't have to be pejorative term. People misuse the word to mean incapable of learning, which as far as I know, is not the case.


The ethnicity is simply for this example. The example was in this case about a black gang. It could easily be any other group of people.


I'm simply saying, the vulnerable will be hit hardest, yet they might not be the ones that need dealing with.

OK. Well I guess we have ground that as fine as possible.

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