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> Second referendum
Strafin
post Nov 19 2018, 08:58 AM
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mellow.gif

I've changed my mind on the whole 2nd referendum thing. We shouldn't have one now, it's too late it's done.

Brexit is stupid, and already has caused so much discourse and hardship, and will continue to do so. There is nothing socially to be gained now, we are divided and the baby boomers have again messed everything up for everyone else. But we have let them, and so there is only one way forward. Get behind the worst prime minister we've had for years and get behind what is widely considered to be a terrible deal for everyone.

The only thing we have is damage limitation and a nod to trying to save a bit of the economy, only stability and certainty will encourage business to settle down and start to invest again. So that's what we need to do.

Maybe a general election after a leadership contest in the summer. Let the Mp's do it on their own time.
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newres
post Nov 19 2018, 09:26 AM
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QUOTE (Strafin @ Nov 19 2018, 08:58 AM) *
mellow.gif

I've changed my mind on the whole 2nd referendum thing. We shouldn't have one now, it's too late it's done.

Brexit is stupid, and already has caused so much discourse and hardship, and will continue to do so. There is nothing socially to be gained now, we are divided and the baby boomers have again messed everything up for everyone else. But we have let them, and so there is only way forward. Get behind the worst prime minister we've had for years and get behind what is widely considered to be a terrible deal for everyone.

The only thing we have is damage limitation and a nod to trying to save a bit of the economy, only stability and certainty will encourage business to settle down and start to invest again. So that's what we need to do.

Maybe a general election after a leadership contest in the summer. Let the Mp's do it on their own time.

Well Iíd go along with that, but it ainít gonna happen according to the experts. She wonít get it through. Thatís why there will be a second referendum.
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dannyboy
post Nov 20 2018, 04:13 PM
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QUOTE (Strafin @ Nov 19 2018, 08:58 AM) *
mellow.gif

I've changed my mind on the whole 2nd referendum thing. We shouldn't have one now, it's too late it's done.

Brexit is stupid, and already has caused so much discourse and hardship, and will continue to do so. There is nothing socially to be gained now, we are divided and the baby boomers have again messed everything up for everyone else. But we have let them, and so there is only one way forward. Get behind the worst prime minister we've had for years and get behind what is widely considered to be a terrible deal for everyone.

The only thing we have is damage limitation and a nod to trying to save a bit of the economy, only stability and certainty will encourage business to settle down and start to invest again. So that's what we need to do.

Maybe a general election after a leadership contest in the summer. Let the Mp's do it on their own time.



I do hope we get the full Hard Brexit.
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SirWilliam
post Nov 20 2018, 06:51 PM
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QUOTE (dannyboy @ Nov 20 2018, 04:13 PM) *
I do hope we get the full Hard Brexit.


To be honest it is the only way if we are to have anything like a prosperous future. A federal Europe is a recipe for disaster and the halfway house as proposed by the (present) government will drag us down with it. The only reason the spineless twits in westminster didn't put in a letter of no confidence was the thought of opening the no 10 door for JC to stroll through and that was a worse option than allowing Mother T to carry on with her crap plan. The fact that Labour is even less electable than the Tories only shows what a useless bunch of retards we have in office. The only ones laughing at our dire position are Jean Claude Juncker and his associated cronies and it is humiliating to those who hold this Country dear. angry.gif angry.gif angry.gif


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je suis Charlie
post Nov 20 2018, 07:05 PM
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QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Nov 20 2018, 06:51 PM) *
To be honest it is the only way if we are to have anything like a prosperous future. A federal Europe is a recipe for disaster and the halfway house as proposed by the (present) government will drag us down with it. The only reason the spineless twits in westminster didn't put in a letter of no confidence was the thought of opening the no 10 door for JC to stroll through and that was a worse option than allowing Mother T to carry on with her crap plan. The fact that Labour is even less electable than the Tories only shows what a useless bunch of retards we have in office. The only ones laughing at our dire position are Jean Claude Juncker and his associated cronies and it is humiliating to those who hold this Country dear. angry.gif angry.gif angry.gif

Don't try to switch dopes in the middle of a fix!


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QUOTE (newres @ Jan 25 2019, 06:47 AM) *
Isnít it obvious? She's just an uppity.
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newres
post Nov 20 2018, 07:14 PM
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QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Nov 20 2018, 06:51 PM) *
To be honest it is the only way if we are to have anything like a prosperous future. A federal Europe is a recipe for disaster and the halfway house as proposed by the (present) government will drag us down with it. The only reason the spineless twits in westminster didn't put in a letter of no confidence was the thought of opening the no 10 door for JC to stroll through and that was a worse option than allowing Mother T to carry on with her crap plan. The fact that Labour is even less electable than the Tories only shows what a useless bunch of retards we have in office. The only ones laughing at our dire position are Jean Claude Juncker and his associated cronies and it is humiliating to those who hold this Country dear. angry.gif angry.gif angry.gif

I'm laughing too! The government are armed with the data and they know a hard Brexit will be disastrous. Do you honestly think they wouldn't do it if they thought it would be at worst neutral? They would be trumpteted as heroes if they could deliver it.
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SirWilliam
post Nov 20 2018, 07:43 PM
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QUOTE (newres @ Nov 20 2018, 07:14 PM) *
I'm laughing too! The government are armed with the data and they know a hard Brexit will be disastrous. Do you honestly think they wouldn't do it if they thought it would be at worst neutral? They would be trumpteted as heroes if they could deliver it.


Bit like Cameron when he offered a referendum in the misguided belief that it would derail the supposed threat of UKIP? Yes they really do have their collective finger on the Countries pulse don't they. Face it, they are all incompetent; so why does Mother T want a soft brexit? Because she thinks that if it goes t**s up labour will sweep to power and spend the next 10 years telling everyone that it was the Tories fault we are in a financial mire. The great unwashed voted to leave and leave we must. In '74 over a third of the electorate voted no but I do not recollect them crying foul like a bunch of petulant school kids or asking for another vote; no, we got on with being a EU member and now we have decided that it is a club we do not wish to be a member of so we are ending our contract.


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newres
post Nov 20 2018, 07:59 PM
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QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Nov 20 2018, 07:43 PM) *
Bit like Cameron when he offered a referendum in the misguided belief that it would derail the supposed threat of UKIP? Yes they really do have their collective finger on the Countries pulse don't they. Face it, they are all incompetent; so why does Mother T want a soft brexit? Because she thinks that if it goes t**s up labour will sweep to power and spend the next 10 years telling everyone that it was the Tories fault we are in a financial mire. The great unwashed voted to leave and leave we must. In '74 over a third of the electorate voted no but I do not recollect them crying foul like a bunch of petulant school kids or asking for another vote; no, we got on with being a EU member and now we have decided that it is a club we do not wish to be a member of so we are ending our contract.

The question is, what did they vote for? We were told the EU would give us an amazing deal because our market was so highly prized. People believed that. How many voted for a hard Brexit with WTO? How many had heard of it? It was too simple a question. Now I believe we have enough knowledge to make an informed decision.

That said, my preference would be TMís deal. But it wonít happen Iím guessing.
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SirWilliam
post Nov 20 2018, 08:23 PM
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QUOTE (newres @ Nov 20 2018, 07:59 PM) *
The question is, what did they vote for? We were told the EU would give us an amazing deal because our market was so highly prized. People believed that. How many voted for a hard Brexit with WTO? How many had heard of it? It was too simple a question. Now I believe we have enough knowledge to make an informed decision.

That said, my preference would be TMís deal. But it wonít happen Iím guessing.


OMG the electorate need to know what they are voting for. laugh.gif I agree there was about as much information bandied about in the referendum as a food label on a Mcdonalds burger but the question wasn't "Do you want to remain and negotiate a better deal; or leave with an amended deal". No it was quite simple "Do you wish to remain in the EU or leave"? 17 million then decided they wanted to leave for probably as many reasons.


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newres
post Nov 21 2018, 06:39 AM
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QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Nov 20 2018, 08:23 PM) *
OMG the electorate need to know what they are voting for. laugh.gif I agree there was about as much information bandied about in the referendum as a food label on a Mcdonalds burger but the question wasn't "Do you want to remain and negotiate a better deal; or leave with an amended deal". No it was quite simple "Do you wish to remain in the EU or leave"? 17 million then decided they wanted to leave for probably as many reasons.

And very nearly the same number voted to stay. Personally I would vote for Theresa Mayís deal. But the most likely outcome of MPs not backing it is another referendum or a GE. But I think there has been enough division.
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Strafin
post Nov 21 2018, 09:18 AM
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Less than half the country voted for it, so we shouldn't even be at this juncture anyway. I agree about JC though, I really thought he was going to be radical and keep the pressure on. Whether you like him or not he offered a very different alternative. But now he just sits on the fence critcising.
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je suis Charlie
post Nov 21 2018, 10:03 PM
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We're stuffed, options now are either a; no Brexit (with new social unrest, rise of ukip etc) or b; a no deal Brexit.


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QUOTE (newres @ Jan 25 2019, 06:47 AM) *
Isnít it obvious? She's just an uppity.
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SirWilliam
post Nov 22 2018, 09:14 AM
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QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Nov 21 2018, 10:03 PM) *
We're stuffed, options now are either a; no Brexit (with new social unrest, rise of ukip etc) or b; a no deal Brexit.


What is wrong with a no deal scenario? Yes it's going to cause a headache for a few very quickly but life will continue won't it? I do not recall anyone saying at the time that we will be propelled back into the stone age if we leave; the simple truth is we don't know and we should just get on with it. Our biggest problem will not having political leadership at the helm of a pretty big ship.
To be honest with the increasing yob mentality in this Country Europe is probably secretly breathing a sigh of relief to see the back of us.



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spartacus
post Nov 22 2018, 09:22 PM
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QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Nov 22 2018, 09:14 AM) *
.....Europe is probably secretly breathing a sigh of relief to see the back of us.
The Merkels, Macrons and Junckers of the EU can't wait to see the back of us but are secretly glad that we seem to have made such a spectacular balls up of the whole leaving process that we've frightened off any other nation that was thinking about following us through the door. Our weak and indecisive politicians have kicked the can and kicked it again and now we're in a mess we can't get out of without putting ourselves in the weak and pathetic position of asking for favours to allow us to stay in for a bit longer 'till we can sort it out'. I despair...
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je suis Charlie
post Nov 25 2018, 09:30 PM
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Now the real fun begins.


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QUOTE (newres @ Jan 25 2019, 06:47 AM) *
Isnít it obvious? She's just an uppity.
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SirWilliam
post Dec 10 2018, 11:09 AM
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So a couple of hours before the westminster pantomime kicks off we now know what the final outcome will be. Chequers deal will be voted out; Mother T will go back to Brussels and over a liquid lunch with Jean-Claude they will concoct "plan B". This in essence means a third plebiscite and as the majority of brexiteers have either given up or shot themselves in desperation the vote will fall in the no's corner. Tory backbenchers will mutter over their port, Liberals will howl for change in the electoral system and Labour will still be following JC having lost a golden opportunity to gain power. We will of course be grateful to all sane members of the European race and Federalism will ensue in time.
History will show it in a different light and academics will debate the issues for generations to come but by this time we will all be speaking German and the ice cap will have melted.
Good thing or bad thing? To be honest I haven't got a clue, (nothing new there), but it certainly has kept the art of conversation in vogue for the past couple of years. rolleyes.gif

ps. Merry xmas boys and girls.


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je suis Charlie
post Dec 11 2018, 01:09 PM
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Express.co.uk: Remainer expat bid to plot to BLOCK BREXIT fails - 2016 referendum result WILL STAND.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/105...sels-referendum

Hooray! Democracy 1, Whingers 0.


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QUOTE (newres @ Jan 25 2019, 06:47 AM) *
Isnít it obvious? She's just an uppity.
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TallDarkAndHands...
post Dec 14 2018, 07:06 AM
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I have come to the conclusion that we should listen to the economic "experts" like Carney, Hammond and co and not leave the EU and ignore the democratic vote and revoke Article 50.

This does set a precedent though. These same experts also say that any Corbyn victory would seriously damage the economy. So if he did ever win a General election I would suggest it would be foolish to allow it to stand and we would have to just ignore the result.
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newres
post Dec 14 2018, 07:26 AM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Dec 14 2018, 07:06 AM) *
I have come to the conclusion that we should listen to the economic "experts" like Carney, Hammond and co and not leave the EU and ignore the democratic vote and revoke Article 50.

This does set a precedent though. These same experts also say that any Corbyn victory would seriously damage the economy. So if he did ever win a General election I would suggest it would be foolish to allow it to stand and we would have to just ignore the result.

Although ofcourse we can vote Corbyn out in 5 years. How about we have a trial leaving of the EU? But perhaps not the 50 years Mogg reckons it will take to know if it was a success? Or we keep Labour for 50 years?
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SirWilliam
post Dec 14 2018, 09:20 AM
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QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Dec 14 2018, 07:06 AM) *
I have come to the conclusion that we should listen to the economic "experts" like Carney, Hammond and co and not leave the EU and ignore the democratic vote and revoke Article 50.

This does set a precedent though. These same experts also say that any Corbyn victory would seriously damage the economy. So if he did ever win a General election I would suggest it would be foolish to allow it to stand and we would have to just ignore the result.


Is this the reasoning behind the SNP's stance on a "free" Scotland vote? The Greeks chucked their fledgling democracy into the long grass because they didn't like the results it threw up and very little has changed in two and half thousand years. I still believe we will return to Brussels with our tales between our legs and say it was a bit of a mistake and could we possibly rejoin your gang? Jean Claude will open an expensive claret and welcome us back on the understanding our annual contribution is doubled in order to compensate those EU farmers/fishermen who have had a couple of sleepless nights over seeing one of their markets disappear but other than that "Bien sŻr vous mťchant personne vous"...........Or words to that effect. rolleyes.gif


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