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> River Lambourn, trespassing on private property
Jay Sands
post Aug 2 2013, 01:47 PM
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I wonder if anyone else has problems with people entering their gardens to access the river to do some illegal fishing. We have been here now for just over three years and every summer there are a few children and adolescents (and old enough to know better) and even sometimes young adults, who climb over walls and/or fences or open gates to access gardens, which must be obvious to anyone are private property, to fish in the river that runs past both our and our neighbour's gardens. When asked politely to remove themselves from your property they looked amazed as if they had some god-given right to trespass.

I have just asked one boy of about 12 to leave, who was standing on our patio amongst our garden furniture and pots and shouting to his friends on the Shaw Road bridge. "Oh, is it your garden"? he said, as if the fact that he could only get into our garden by climbing over the bridge and walking along the garden wall to enter it was something to be ignored. Would these people be happy if we just walked into their gardens and sat down to have tea?



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newres
post Aug 2 2013, 01:52 PM
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Interesting as I was going to look at a house on Castle Grove with the river at the garden. It wouldn't occur to me that trespassing would be an issue.
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motormad
post Aug 2 2013, 02:58 PM
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The kid's 12.
Give him a break.

Tresspass is technically a civil matter and as long as they do not damage anything and, once asked to leave, do - they are not breaking any laws.
Infact you have "intended right of passage" when you have anything like a path - it doesn't matter if it's near a bridge or anything.

I can understand your peril but if people want to sit there and fish why not talk to them and maybe offer them a cup of tea. Maybe they will give you a fish.

You know what they say.

If you give a man a fish he will eat for a day.
If you give a fish a man he will eat for the rest of his life.


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newres
post Aug 2 2013, 03:01 PM
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QUOTE (motormad @ Aug 2 2013, 03:58 PM) *
The kid's 12.
Give him a break.

Tresspass is technically a civil matter and as long as they do not damage anything and, once asked to leave, do - they are not breaking any laws.
Infact you have "intended right of passage" when you have anything like a path - it doesn't matter if it's near a bridge or anything.

I can understand your peril but if people want to sit there and fish why not talk to them and maybe offer them a cup of tea. Maybe they will give you a fish.

You know what they say.

If you give a man a fish he will eat for a day.
If you give a fish a man he will eat for the rest of his life.

You are kidding right?
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Jay Sands
post Aug 2 2013, 03:33 PM
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motormad

i) first, the kid, 12 or otherwise, is not the only person who trespasses in our garden to fish illegally, which by the way is private property;
ii) there is no 'intended right of passage' because there is no path or indeed anything else that could pass for a right of way, the only access to our garden for those who do not live here is to climb over the bridge or break through a locked garden gate;
iii) children and indeed anyone else should respect other people's property and not trespass on it;
iv) if you have a garden and you wish to let people wander into it and use it as their own while you have a chat with them you are welcome to do so;
v) there are no free fishing rights on this part of the river (in fact the rights belong to others and not to us);
vi) you do not appear to know the law relating to trespass: It is against the law to trespass on any land (and inland that includes land covered by water such as rivers or lakes) or in any building. Ignorance of that fact is no defence under this law. The word trespass covers much more than people usually realise. All land in this country belongs to someone. If you go on to land without the owner's permission, you are trespassing unless there is some right of access for the public, or for you specifically (for example if you have acquired a right to pass over the land to reach some land of your own). The fact that there is no fence or no sign saying that the land is private does not mean that people can go there. Wandering on to farmers' fields or other places which are obviously private is clearly trespassing, but so is wandering over land which may not be so clearly private, if the public has no right of access.










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Simon Kirby
post Aug 2 2013, 07:47 PM
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Trespass is a tort, but like motormad says, you have to suffer significant financial damage to be able to sue. Of course if they don't leave when you ask them or if they're abusive then that becomes a criminal matter and you need to call the police.

It sounds rather horrible actually, I don't think I'd like it at all if I found someone walking about in my garden. It sounds like something you should talk to the community policing team about. They're not going to come an arrest anyone, but it's the kind of misunderstanding that they might be able to sort out in a practical kind of way, and they may well understand the background.


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Nothing Much
post Aug 2 2013, 07:54 PM
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Hi Jay Sands.
Bearing in mind Motormad and a path being a public right of way.
If I have streetmapped correctly your pad does have an inviting path by the waterside.
To a complete dimwit this might appear a free for all path to a nice bankside spot for a trout.

Interesting property,but a shame about the uninvited guests. I would say the only way apart from ugly security fencing
would be to change the shrubbery adding "Firethorn". It will not deter this or next year but having pruned one
yesterday I can assure you a large one is lethal and might be worth the wait. The bridge is not very photogenic.

There is free fishing for about a mile along the path that runs by the Newbury Business Park and on another forum a gent was
happy with his catch of 4 trout there.Please don't ask me to find it again! Also Newres there is a lake type water for free fishing on the northern side of the Lambourne close to Castle Grove. I think I just googled free fishing on Lambourne.
I expected you not to have fishing rights. I wonder if you have paddling rights.
ce
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Darren
post Aug 2 2013, 10:15 PM
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Would riparian rights not apply?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riparian_water_rights

Plus poaching, depending on rights?
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x2lls
post Aug 3 2013, 06:31 AM
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I'm with Jay on this, regardless of what all you law quoting experts have to say. My garden is MY garden and unless and until you are invited you can **** well stay out. What about MY privacy? What about MY familys safety. If an as$hole has the gall to trample over MY garden, when does it stop?



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Strafin
post Aug 3 2013, 07:14 AM
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Totally agree, push the buggers in!
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Jay Sands
post Aug 3 2013, 07:38 AM
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Nothing much - I'm not sure where you're streetmapping but I can assure you there is no inviting path, public or private, here. The only way you can gain access to our garden other than through the house is to climb over the bridge, landing in the river and climbing the garden wall, or across part of another neighbour's garden, or to break through a padlocked garden side gate. Not that any of these obstacles prevented the lead thieves last year stripping both ours and our neighbour's roofs and windows.

We have a very small garden, the width from the house to the river is only about 25 feet, so there is no way we could put up high security fencing even if we wanted to without completely destroying the whole point of having a riverside garden and would feel like a prison.

The 12 year old yesterday was just one example, there have been much older and much larger adolescents and young men who have trespassed and who even if they were the biggest dimwit in the world could not fail to see they were in someone's garden. There is what we laughingly call a lawn, patio, garden furniture, potted plants, etc., it is clearly a private garden.

We are not interested in suing anyone or having someone arrested we just want them to stay out of our garden. It is very intimidating to suddenly find a stranger standing just feet away from your back door.



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Nothing Much
post Aug 3 2013, 10:18 AM
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Oh well Jay Sands. I enjoyed my little ramble around Shaw. The spot I concentrated on was on the opposite side of the river to
a Mill House and nearby was a **** Tavern. Nice little river. I tried to work out the age and architectural style of the building.

It does seem as if you have more than a case of mistaken entry, losing the lead sounds pretty catastrophic ,with the weather 'n all.
Simon Kirby is right in saying that the police or local community should be told of the problem. Maybe the fishing rights
administrators. A flock of angry geese would do the trick, bit messy though. No toilet training, like the 12 year old!.

Streetview is good fun and I hope you don't think I was prying. I am featured entering my front door as the camera car went east to west but I have disappeared on a return drive by. I am pleased to say I have lost a little weight since the photo was taken!
ce.
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Jay Sands
post Aug 3 2013, 10:26 AM
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QUOTE (Nothing Much @ Aug 3 2013, 11:18 AM) *
Oh well Jay Sands. I enjoyed my little ramble around Shaw. The spot I concentrated on was on the opposite side of the river to
a Mill House and nearby was a **** Tavern. Nice little river. I tried to work out the age and architectural style of the building.

It does seem as if you have more than a case of mistaken entry, losing the lead sounds pretty catastrophic ,with the weather 'n all.
Simon Kirby is right in saying that the police or local community should be told of the problem. Maybe the fishing rights
administrators. A flock of angry geese would do the trick, bit messy though. No toilet training, like the 12 year old!.

Streetview is good fun and I hope you don't think I was prying. I am featured entering my front door as the camera car went east to west but I have disappeared on a return drive by. I am pleased to say I have lost a little weight since the photo was taken!
ce.


"...I hope you don't think I was prying" - not at all, I often look at the 'birds eye view' on Bing maps, the only thing about them is you don't know how old the images are. I remember reading somewhere that the Google map satellite views were often over a year old so if anything's changed in that time it won't show up.

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JeffG
post Aug 3 2013, 01:06 PM
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Google maps is well over a year old. The old hospital is still shown as a building site with a large car park on the other side of the Andover road.
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Exhausted
post Aug 3 2013, 01:46 PM
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QUOTE (Jay Sands @ Aug 3 2013, 11:26 AM) *
...... not at all, I often look at the 'birds eye view' on Bing maps, the only thing about them is you don't know how old the images are. I remember reading somewhere that the Google map satellite views were often over a year old so if anything's changed in that time it won't show up.

I think you will find that some of the views, particularly in the smaller towns (like Newbury) can be two or three years out of date.
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dannyboy
post Aug 3 2013, 04:35 PM
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QUOTE (Exhausted @ Aug 3 2013, 02:46 PM) *
I think you will find that some of the views, particularly in the smaller towns (like Newbury) can be two or three years out of date.

Are you saying that the views of Newbrarians are behind the times? A mans ( womans ) home is his ( her ) Castle!
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motormad
post Aug 5 2013, 04:00 PM
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QUOTE (Jay Sands @ Aug 2 2013, 04:33 PM) *
motormad

i) first, the kid, 12 or otherwise, is not the only person who trespasses in our garden to fish illegally, which by the way is private property;
ii) there is no 'intended right of passage' because there is no path or indeed anything else that could pass for a right of way, the only access to our garden for those who do not live here is to climb over the bridge or break through a locked garden gate;
iii) children and indeed anyone else should respect other people's property and not trespass on it;
iv) if you have a garden and you wish to let people wander into it and use it as their own while you have a chat with them you are welcome to do so;
v) there are no free fishing rights on this part of the river (in fact the rights belong to others and not to us);
vi) you do not appear to know the law relating to trespass: It is against the law to trespass on any land (and inland that includes land covered by water such as rivers or lakes) or in any building. Ignorance of that fact is no defence under this law. The word trespass covers much more than people usually realise. All land in this country belongs to someone. If you go on to land without the owner's permission, you are trespassing unless there is some right of access for the public, or for you specifically (for example if you have acquired a right to pass over the land to reach some land of your own). The fact that there is no fence or no sign saying that the land is private does not mean that people can go there. Wandering on to farmers' fields or other places which are obviously private is clearly trespassing, but so is wandering over land which may not be so clearly private, if the public has no right of access.


Hi Jay Sahara.

The 12 year old was the only one mentioned. Climbing over the bridge sounds a bit risky but I am not sure on the legality. Perhaps a crime of death by dangerous climbing could be applied. Imagine that on the 11 o clock news. I mean, after all, it all boils down to this one question. Who does own all of the swans in England? I don't think it's the Queen.
Or what about the Gobi?
Luckily, I do not choose to live next to a river as I get sea-sick. Although I wonder if you were sick on a river, it would be called "river-sick". It's not a phrase I've heard before. My garden is surrounded by high fences and I have a gate which is surrounded by walls (which often close in if you stand there long enough).

I am into my URBEX (google it) and know plenty about the rules of tresspass. As most of the sites I go to are marked as "private" or belong to government agencies who have long since forgotten about them. The most they can do, if you do not break or steal anything, is ask you to leave. If you do not leave by the most direct safe route then things change.
Infact at a site three weeks ago, I offered a bottle of Liptons Ice-Tea to a security guard in exchange for him to "investigate that noise over there" (conveniently in the opposite end of the building that I was in) to leave me to explore and investigate the pass.
Tresspass is a civil issue - hence why police are never involved and if they are, they will tell you do do one.

Rather than angrily type on a web-forum full of middle aged people (I've met most of them I'm allowed to say laugh.gif) why don't you do something about it?
Push them in the river, see where that gets you. That would be intended right to manslaughter laugh.gif

I regularly have tea-parties for stranges. Infact it was only the other day that I invited Leonardo the Turtle, to dinner and we sat down with Steven the Hedgehog as well, we shared tea and talked about the war.


Thank you Mr Atacama


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x2lls
post Aug 5 2013, 08:59 PM
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QUOTE (motormad @ Aug 5 2013, 05:00 PM) *
Hi Jay Sahara.

The 12 year old was the only one mentioned. Climbing over the bridge sounds a bit risky but I am not sure on the legality. Perhaps a crime of death by dangerous climbing could be applied. Imagine that on the 11 o clock news. I mean, after all, it all boils down to this one question. Who does own all of the swans in England? I don't think it's the Queen.
Or what about the Gobi?
Luckily, I do not choose to live next to a river as I get sea-sick. Although I wonder if you were sick on a river, it would be called "river-sick". It's not a phrase I've heard before. My garden is surrounded by high fences and I have a gate which is surrounded by walls (which often close in if you stand there long enough).

I am into my URBEX (google it) and know plenty about the rules of tresspass. As most of the sites I go to are marked as "private" or belong to government agencies who have long since forgotten about them. The most they can do, if you do not break or steal anything, is ask you to leave. If you do not leave by the most direct safe route then things change.
Infact at a site three weeks ago, I offered a bottle of Liptons Ice-Tea to a security guard in exchange for him to "investigate that noise over there" (conveniently in the opposite end of the building that I was in) to leave me to explore and investigate the pass.
Tresspass is a civil issue - hence why police are never involved and if they are, they will tell you do do one.

Rather than angrily type on a web-forum full of middle aged people (I've met most of them I'm allowed to say laugh.gif) why don't you do something about it?
Push them in the river, see where that gets you. That would be intended right to manslaughter laugh.gif

I regularly have tea-parties for stranges. Infact it was only the other day that I invited Leonardo the Turtle, to dinner and we sat down with Steven the Hedgehog as well, we shared tea and talked about the war.


Thank you Mr Atacama



How clever.
Ouch, there goes another rib.


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pbonnay
post Aug 6 2013, 07:48 AM
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QUOTE (motormad @ Aug 5 2013, 05:00 PM) *
"Tresspass (sic) is a civil issue - hence why police are never involved and if they are, they will tell you do do one."


Not always, it depends on the location and intent. Trespass can be criminal.
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Biker1
post Aug 6 2013, 08:26 AM
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QUOTE (motormad @ Aug 2 2013, 03:58 PM) *
Tresspass is technically a civil matter and as long as they do not damage anything and, once asked to leave, do - they are not breaking any laws.

QUOTE (motormad @ Aug 2 2013, 03:58 PM) *
Tresspass is a civil issue - hence why police are never involved and if they are, they will tell you do do one

Unless it is on the railway! Link.
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