What is the point of them in an emergency? Options

[Strafin]

I can't find any videos of the Newbury bollards, but these ones in Manchester take seconds to rise and lower. http://youtu.be/PRCA8MvedIo

[HeatherW]

I can't find any videos of the Newbury bollards, but these ones in Manchester take seconds to rise and lower. http://youtu.be/PRCA8MvedIo

I spoke to a friend of mine who is a police officer and he said that from stopping, to presenting your card (ID), to the bollards going up can take too long. Probably over a minute. That is why they go around them, instead of waiting. I've often seen the police car going around the bollards to get to their destination quickly. Delay in time could mean serious consequences.

[HeatherW]

Rubbish. Responding to 'Emergency A' as quickly as possible doesn't mean you should leave a trail of 'Emergency B's, 'C's and 'D's in your wake for others to deal with. If they put pedestrians at risk in an area and at a time when vehicles are not meant to be there, especially if there could be elderly or deaf people walking about, then they shouldn't be behind the wheel of a police vehicle.

Being a police response vehicle driver means making judgement calls and balancing risks. Speeding through a pedestrian area isn't clever if you want to keep your police pension. If the area was clear because it was raining and most shoppers were inside that may be worth the risk. Otherwise, you enter the area on 'blues' and sirens but travel slowly and assume someone might accidentally step into your path.

Are you sure these were proper policemen you saw and it wasn't some Keystone Cops Re-enactment Society members larking about? Are PCSOs allowed to drive police cars?

Whether rubbish or not, this is happening. As I pointed out in another post a police officers priority is to get to their destination double quick.

I can't speak for GMR or anybody else, but I can say that I have seen the police go around those bollards on numerous occasions. And this was confirmed to me by various people.

[HeatherW]

As I asked before, how long did it take?

You don't have to be exact, to the nearest second will do.

I don't think the question should be how long do they take to go up. But how long does the procedure take from the police car speeding to its destiny, stopping quickly, presenting their ID and then waiting for the bollards to rise. From what I've been told it can take anything from a minute to two minutes. I say two minutes, as ones ID doesn't always register straight away.

[On the edge]

Whether rubbish or not, this is happening. As I pointed out in another post a police officers priority is to get to their destination double quick.

I can't speak for GMR or anybody else, but I can say that I have seen the police go around those bollards on numerous occasions. And this was confirmed to me by various people.

....more haste, less speed.

I would really worry if I heard a Police driver saying things like this. Yes, they have to get to the scene quickly BUT safely.

[HeatherW]

This is not really the answer - the answer to "What is the point of the bollards in an emergency?" Is either that they have no point in an emergency, their point is to stop traffic using Northbrook Street - or - by preventing traffic from entering Northbrook Street they ensure that emergency vehicles are not stuck in a traffic jam in Northbrook Street and thus enable them to get to the emergency more quickly.

What is the issue - police car drives on pavement to get to emergency - the whole of Northbrook Street is a pavement when the bollards are up, so what's so special about the bit around the bollards? I've watched them drive round the bollards - pedestrians seemed to get the idea and get out of the way pretty sharpish!

Actually you are wrong. I used to work for the local council many years ago and a road is a road and a pavement is a pavement. The same applies in Northbrook Street. The Pedestrian walk way in Northbrook street is only for people. Not cars or bikes. The cobbled road is for cars at certain times, and beyond that bikes, people and emergency vehicles. But the pavement is the safe point for pedestrians. the only reason an emergency service would and should use a designated pavement is when it is obstructed.

[HeatherW]

....more haste, less speed.

I would really worry if I heard a Police driver saying things like this. Yes, they have to get to the scene quickly BUT safely.

But if they have to use the pavement then who said they weren't using it safely? Don't forget the police are trained for all sorts of situations, unlike the public.

[Petra]

I think the point was made excellently by HeatherW. It is not about how long it takes for the bollards to be raise, but how long it takes from quickly stopping, presenting their transponder and then waiting for the bollards to rise. Even presenting their ID, it doesn’t always accept and has to be tried on several occasions, which could end up taking the whole process minutes. That is why the police ignore them and go around.

I’ve had many discussions, in my various rolls, about this problem, the trouble is the authorities won’t authorise spending to deal with this issue. And it is a long standing concern. There is a whiff of turning a blind eye and hoping that everything will be ok. But that is not a criticism, just acknowledging the modern and economic environment that was created in 2008.With the tight squeeze on budges etc., certain, shall we say observations, are put on the backburner in the hope that it won’t be an issue that brings the authorities into disrepute. I must concur with this as there is never a problem until a problem becomes an issue. Then it is dealt with as best as possible.

Yours,

Petra

[Spider]

My job is driving lorries, so I often have to go through bollards. I noticed that they differ, depending on which ones you use. But they can take up to a few minutes, and in some cases longer, depending if they click into action straight away. I’ve never used the bollards in Newbury, but mainly areas like Reading or further out. My cousin is an ambulance driver, unfortunately, he says, that an ambulance can’t go around the bollards so have to go through the procedure. This is fine in some bollard operational areas, while others could take minutes. There has been issues arising over bollard times, but there is a unwillingness to put money into the problem to solve it. I must say I have witnessed a police car and a small ambulance car (which is preferably used when being called out in Newbury town centre, if possible) going around the bollards. Even though I haven’t personally timed them, in Newbury, they do seem to take the police car ages to get through.

[On the edge]

But if they have to use the pavement then who said they weren't using it safely? Don't forget the police are trained for all sorts of situations, unlike the public.

If a Police car can use the pavement safely, then there is no issue with them not being able to operate the bollards! After all. Once through the bollards, they are going to confront exactly the same situation as they found on the pavement. When the bollards are up, it is intrinsically dangerous to drive through Northbrook Street, even more so at speed. Ironically, they'd be better off on foot, running.

A good few years back, the emergency service control centres had to record when their vehicles used lights and sirens in an attempt to ensure this was only done in the case of real emergencies; real ones, which really need such a rapid reaction, are nowhere near as common as might be imagined.

[Mr Brown]

I can't see why they'd want to drive through Northbrook Street in an emergency anyway. Even for a town centre shout, they would have been far better off down a Parkway, or the road that runs down to the Swimming Pool. From either access to the centre is simple.

[GMR]

I'm not suggesting anything, I'm trying to establish your scientific method. You claimed that a police officer had verified your timing experiment and you implied the timing was performed under emergency conditions but that seemed to me unlikely and what seemed more plausible was that you'd made some kind of guestimation of the timing and then separately engaged an officer in a bollard-related discussion in which the officer had offered her subjective view that, in the same way a watched kettle will never boil, so the bollards appear to her to take forever to descend when she's on an emergency call and, pumped with adrenalin, desparately waiting for the bollards to lower. That or the officer just politely agreed with you. Either way it wasn't the objective validation of your experimental evidence that you made it out to be. So then I'd ask why, if your scientific method was sound, would you try and bolster it with an unsubstantiated claim that it had been independently verified by a Thames Valley Police observer, and the most likely answer is a lack of soundness. You made a specific claim about timing which has been disputed and I'm just trying to see if your claim has substance.

There was noscientific method. And I never claimed that a police officer confirmed anything. All I said was that I observed it by glancing at my watch when I saw a vehicle use the bollards. But as other people have confirmed the times vary. Also; it is doesn't matter if it took 1 second, my point was the police had to go around it.

Certainly my timing has been disputed on here; most have said a lot longer. And it isn't an issue how long they take to go up, but from the time the police stopping, presenting their ID or whatever you call it (if it works the first time) and then the bollards actually going down and then the police going on their merry way towards their emergency.

[GMR]

As I asked before, how long did it take? You don't have to be exact, to the nearest second will do.

I think I answered that.

[GMR]

If a Police car can use the pavement safely, then there is no issue with them not being able to operate the bollards! After all. Once through the bollards, they are going to confront exactly the same situation as they found on the pavement. When the bollards are up, it is intrinsically dangerous to drive through Northbrook Street, even more so at speed. Ironically, they'd be better off on foot, running. A good few years back, the emergency service control centres had to record when their vehicles used lights and sirens in an attempt to ensure this was only done in the case of real emergencies; real ones, which really need such a rapid reaction, are nowhere near as common as might be imagined.

There was never any issues - as far as I could tell - whether they could operate the bollards or not, the issue was over timing.

I doubt they would agree with you that they would be better off on foot, however, I am sure they are better placed to judge than us.

[Ruth]

I would have thought that if the police had to go around the bollards then they did it for a reason. I've watched the buses use them and they seem to take a long time. I know I've been on a bus and heard drivers moan about the time it takes for them to lower. I must admit I've never seen a police car or even an ambulance go around them, but if they have to then something must be done as the bollards are inadequate.

If the bollards can't stop a police car then they couldn't stop any sort of car, then I can't see much use for them. As far as I can see they are a waste of money. I'll tell you what I have seen though. I am often in Newbury and workmen seem to be always working on them.

[On the edge]

I would have thought that if the police had to go around the bollards then they did it for a reason. I've watched the buses use them and they seem to take a long time. I know I've been on a bus and heard drivers moan about the time it takes for them to lower. I must admit I've never seen a police car or even an ambulance go around them, but if they have to then something must be done as the bollards are inadequate.

If the bollards can't stop a police car then they couldn't stop any sort of car, then I can't see much use for them. As far as I can see they are a waste of money. I'll tell you what I have seen though. I am often in Newbury and workmen seem to be always working on them.

Of course we wouldn't need bollards if Thames Valley's finest were willing to do a bit of real community policing now and again. Then again, I'm really finding it hard to understand exactly what crisis occurred to make a couple of apparently sane coppers think it was right and acceptable to drive at speed through what is a pedestrian precinct?

[GMR]

Of course we wouldn't need bollards if Thames Valley's finest were willing to do a bit of real community policing now and again. Then again, I'm really finding it hard to understand exactly what crisis occurred to make a couple of apparently sane coppers think it was right and acceptable to drive at speed through what is a pedestrian precinct?

The freedom of information act should answer that one

[Simon Kirby]

There was noscientific method. And I never claimed that a police officer confirmed anything. All I said was that I observed it by glancing at my watch when I saw a vehicle use the bollards. But as other people have confirmed the times vary. Also; it is doesn't matter if it took 1 second, my point was the police had to go around it.

Certainly my timing has been disputed on here; most have said a lot longer. And it isn't an issue how long they take to go up, but from the time the police stopping, presenting their ID or whatever you call it (if it works the first time) and then the bollards actually going down and then the police going on their merry way towards their emergency.

You said "first; I've timed it, secondly I've had it confirmed by a police officer.", and you also said it took "well over a minute", but when you were asked specifically how long it had taken you couldn't say. Anyhoo, I'll leave it there.

[GMR]

You said "first; I've timed it, secondly I've had it confirmed by a police officer.", and you also said it took "well over a minute", but when you were asked specifically how long it had taken you couldn't say. Anyhoo, I'll leave it there.

Actually I didn't say I couldn't say, only that I answered it (actually I said it was under two minutes). When I said I had it confirmed, I meant by asking a police officer how long it normally took them, that was when I was in a conversation with an officer. Not that one or the other was looking over the others shoulder to confirm anything. Besides, it is all academic now as others have jumped in with their anecdotal evidence. Besides, timing never was the issue, but why they did it or had to do it.

[Andy Capp]

Of course we wouldn't need bollards if Thames Valley's finest were willing to do a bit of real community policing now and again. Then again, I'm really finding it hard to understand exactly what crisis occurred to make a couple of apparently sane coppers think it was right and acceptable to drive at speed through what is a pedestrian precinct?

Who said they drove at speed?