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SirWilliam
post Jul 9 2017, 07:07 PM
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-40547691

So some bright spark has decided that our beloved Lake District should be given UNESCO status.

Now I am all for conservation but history shows us that when we place these things in the hands of people who live miles away then it is a recipe for disaster, ( a bit like the pricks in Westminster ). Most people only visit the lakes in summer but it is a landscape forged by millenniums of weather, ( usually VERY wet ), hill farming and a singular lack of human intervention.

I do like the passing reference to Stonehenge and, as anyone who has had the misfortune to drive down that way of late will testify, what a pig's ear they have achieved with that.


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On the edge
post Jul 9 2017, 08:09 PM
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QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Jul 9 2017, 08:07 PM) *
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-40547691

So some bright spark has decided that our beloved Lake District should be given UNESCO status.

Now I am all for conservation but history shows us that when we place these things in the hands of people who live miles away then it is a recipe for disaster, ( a bit like the pricks in Westminster ). Most people only visit the lakes in summer but it is a landscape forged by millenniums of weather, ( usually VERY wet ), hill farming and a singular lack of human intervention.

I do like the passing reference to Stonehenge and, as anyone who has had the misfortune to drive down that way of late will testify, what a pig's ear they have achieved with that.


Bit of a circular argument there Sir, a good few would claim that in such places it's the locals wot do the damage. 'Just a few extra square feet in my cafe' and 'desperately needed accommodation for my family' and 'social housing for local poor people'. What's so wrong with market forces here? Let the customers decide.


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SirWilliam
post Jul 10 2017, 10:12 AM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Jul 9 2017, 09:09 PM) *
Bit of a circular argument there Sir, a good few would claim that in such places it's the locals wot do the damage. 'Just a few extra square feet in my cafe' and 'desperately needed accommodation for my family' and 'social housing for local poor people'. What's so wrong with market forces here? Let the customers decide.



This is why I cited Stonehenge as the model. When it was a few sarsen stones in a field visited by unruly school kids and a few odd bods who called themselves Druids / new age travellers etc it had little or no impact on either the local economy or traffic. Then the boys in beige built a monstrosity called a visitors centre, closed off a main road and caused a continual traffic jam which they propose rectifying by building a multi-million pound, ( read taxpayer footed ), tunnel. The impact on the area has little or no advantages but an awful lot of detriment to the overall ambience.

Not the best of credentials for an organisation that supposedly has "conservation" as it's raison d'etre.


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Berkshirelad
post Jul 10 2017, 12:56 PM
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Grammar Police Warning

The plural of millennium is millennia
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Andy Capp
post Jul 10 2017, 04:49 PM
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QUOTE (Berkshirelad @ Jul 10 2017, 01:56 PM) *
Grammar Police Warning

The plural of millennium is millennia

From what I read, both are OK.
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Simon Kirby
post Jul 10 2017, 05:14 PM
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QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Jul 9 2017, 08:07 PM) *
Now I am all for conservation but history shows us that when we place these things in the hands of people who live miles away then it is a recipe for disaster, ( a bit like the pricks in Westminster ). Most people only visit the lakes in summer but it is a landscape forged by millenniums of weather, ( usually VERY wet ), hill farming and a singular lack of human intervention.

If I remember my O'level geography right, the Lake District is a landscape forged by glaciation rather than weather as such.

Do you have specific examples of "these things" that have ended in disaster at the "hands of people who live miles away"?


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Simon Kirby
post Jul 10 2017, 05:37 PM
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QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Jul 10 2017, 11:12 AM) *
This is why I cited Stonehenge as the model. When it was a few sarsen stones in a field visited by unruly school kids and a few odd bods who called themselves Druids / new age travellers etc it had little or no impact on either the local economy or traffic. Then the boys in beige built a monstrosity called a visitors centre, closed off a main road and caused a continual traffic jam ...

Sorry, but this isn't true. From Wikipedia:

QUOTE (Wikipedia A303 Road)
Since the 1950s, the A303 has been criticised for being inadequate for the level of traffic along it. In 1959, it was reported that a typical queue for holiday traffic along the road could be as much as 15 miles (24 km).[28] As of 2016, over 35 miles (56 km) of the road west of Amesbury remains single carriageway, interrupted by various sections of dual carriageway. The switches between the latter to the former act as bottlenecks and are major sources of congestion along the route.


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SirWilliam
post Jul 10 2017, 06:17 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jul 10 2017, 06:37 PM) *
Sorry, but this isn't true. From Wikipedia:



Sorry ! Obviously Wikipedia knows more than someone who actually lived close by for a number of years, ( 70's). They didn't have Specsavers then, rolleyes.gif
Seriously though, the 303 was the main artery, along with the A30, to the West Country, and yes it was busy but that was due in part to being single carriageway for most of its length. The addition of dual carriageway sections has had the effect of causing a "wave flow" in the traffic, and as any budding physicist will tell you if you pour milk too quickly into a bottle some will spill over.

On a side issue, though relevant to the original post, the problem has been exacerbated by those who think they know how to manage these things as opposed to actually knowing.


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SirWilliam
post Jul 10 2017, 06:46 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jul 10 2017, 06:14 PM) *
If I remember my O'level geography right, the Lake District is a landscape forged by glaciation rather than weather as such.

Do you have specific examples of "these things" that have ended in disaster at the "hands of people who live miles away"?



On the first point, the contours may not have altered a great deal in 10,000 years but the fauna and flora certainly has, and this is due in main to those who have lived and worked here over the centuries.

On the second? everything! angry.gif


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je suis Charlie
post Jul 10 2017, 06:56 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jul 10 2017, 05:14 PM) *
If I remember my O'level geography right, the Lake District is a landscape forged by glaciation rather than weather as such.

And water erosion, and frost erosion, oh and copper mining, lots n lots of that!
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SirWilliam
post Jul 10 2017, 07:12 PM
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QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Jul 10 2017, 07:56 PM) *
And water erosion, and frost erosion, oh and copper mining, lots n lots of that!



https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j...rGdGNHjdhqKst4w

Lot of interesting facts on the subject here.


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Simon Kirby
post Jul 10 2017, 07:13 PM
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QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Jul 10 2017, 07:56 PM) *
And water erosion, and frost erosion, oh and copper mining, lots n lots of that!

No, the landscape is basically glacial with U-shaped valleys.


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Simon Kirby
post Jul 10 2017, 07:23 PM
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QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Jul 10 2017, 07:17 PM) *
On a side issue, though relevant to the original post, the problem has been exacerbated by those who think they know how to manage these things as opposed to actually knowing.

Yes, you said that, but you haven't shown that to be true, and your example of the traffic jams on the A303 being caused by the visitor center is not supported by the evidence.


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Biker1
post Jul 11 2017, 05:08 AM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jul 10 2017, 08:23 PM) *
Yes, you said that, but you haven't shown that to be true, and your example of the traffic jams on the A303 being caused by the visitor center is not supported by the evidence.

Grammar Police warning!!
It's actually "centre" on this side of the Atlantic!! tongue.gif
Oh and I thought the closure of the A360 at Stonehenge was done in an attempt to alleviate the jams there on the A303?
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Simon Kirby
post Jul 11 2017, 06:30 AM
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QUOTE (Biker1 @ Jul 11 2017, 06:08 AM) *
Grammar Police warning!!
It's actually "centre" on this side of the Atlantic!! tongue.gif

Give over, do we really need to nit-pick over spelling?


QUOTE (Biker1 @ Jul 11 2017, 06:08 AM) *
Oh and I thought the closure of the A360 at Stonehenge was done in an attempt to alleviate the jams there on the A303?

I wouldn't know, but the point is that the A303 has suffered from traffic jams for decades because it's a largely single-lane road that carries heavy traffic and because people have a tendency to slow right down to have a good look at the stones as they pass. Sir William's argument was that the traffic jams were caused by the visitor cente but the traffic jams existed decades before it was built and this spurious example was his only support for his argument that UNESCO would be bad for the Lake District.


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blackdog
post Jul 11 2017, 08:04 AM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jul 10 2017, 06:37 PM) *
Sorry, but this isn't true. From Wikipedia:


I remember one of those queues - caused by the bottleneck at the traffic lights in the middle of Andover every warm bank holiday weekend - nowhere near Stonehenge.

I also remember clambering over the fallen stones at Stonehenge, a far better 'visitor experience' than today.
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blackdog
post Jul 11 2017, 08:12 AM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Jul 9 2017, 09:09 PM) *
Bit of a circular argument there Sir, a good few would claim that in such places it's the locals wot do the damage. 'Just a few extra square feet in my cafe' and 'desperately needed accommodation for my family' and 'social housing for local poor people'. What's so wrong with market forces here? Let the customers decide.


Market forces would ensure that houses were built all over the landscape, richer folk buying a nice view, poorer folk pushed out. Until of course, the views ceased to be nice owing to the encroaching housing estates. Market forces gave us the American suburban landscape - truly hideous; thankfully they came up with the idea of national parks to ensure that a few places would be spared market forces - one of the best US inventions.
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SirWilliam
post Jul 11 2017, 10:37 AM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jul 11 2017, 07:30 AM) *
Give over, do we really need to nit-pick over spelling?



I wouldn't know, but the point is that the A303 has suffered from traffic jams for decades because it's a largely single-lane road that carries heavy traffic and because people have a tendency to slow right down to have a good look at the stones as they pass. Sir William's argument was that the traffic jams were caused by the visitor cente but the traffic jams existed decades before it was built and this spurious example was his only support for his argument that UNESCO would be bad for the Lake District.


My submission is that placing it under the auspices of an "outside" organisation does not in itself guarantee the continuation of the status quo. Is it of greater importance to generate prosperity in an area or maintain it like a museum frozen in time?
Little doubt World Heritage Status will assist the local economy but the cost to the environment is the footprint of the increase in countless walkers on the fells.
The "visitor centre" at Stonehenge is a monstrous blot on the landscape as opposed to a direct contributor to the traffic chaos. If the stones were not there the problem would still exist. Based on that premise if we moved Winterbourne Stoke and upgraded the 303 to dual carriageway for its entire length then it would benefit many, ( as did the Newbury bypass ), but is it right?

Incidentally, I have given your question over evidential support a little thought and to be honest most of it is anecdotal and therefore of little clout. Let us return to this in 100 years and see.


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On the edge
post Jul 11 2017, 03:50 PM
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QUOTE (blackdog @ Jul 11 2017, 09:12 AM) *
Market forces would ensure that houses were built all over the landscape, richer folk buying a nice view, poorer folk pushed out. Until of course, the views ceased to be nice owing to the encroaching housing estates. Market forces gave us the American suburban landscape - truly hideous; thankfully they came up with the idea of national parks to ensure that a few places would be spared market forces - one of the best US inventions.


Surely our existing legislation deals with the potential for over development. In the case of the Lake District it's reinforced by the National Park rules as well. Arguably, by applying the UNESCO status, the Chairman is insulting our Governance by implying we can't or won't protect this area ourselves, so like some third world republic, we need help.


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Biker1
post Jul 11 2017, 06:17 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jul 11 2017, 07:30 AM) *
Give over, do we really need to nit-pick over spelling?

Wasn't me that started it on this thread!
Didn't you spot the tongue-in-cheek emoticon?? laugh.gif
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