The NewburyToday 2012 Legolympiad: Achilles against Theseus, It's time to disestablish the church of England Options

[Simon Kirby]

The Games of the NewburyToday 2012 Legolympiad: Achilles against Theseus

The proposition is: It's time to disestablish the church of England.

Arguing for the proposition is Achilles, and arguing against the proposition is Theseus.

When the heros have completed their contest a poll will open in this thread, so please vote for the hero you feel argued their position the best. The thread will be open for comments then too, though please try not to comment until the debate has finished. Many thanks.

[Simon Kirby]

Achilles says:

Sundays are no longer sacred. It has been a long time since the Sabbath was classed as a day of rest for most of us, except the local church of England vicar. Congregations are dwindling at an all time low and even Pudsey the dog is proving that we are all evolving into brighter and better animals. My local vicar is a Spurs fan and towards the end of last season he would have much rather worked 9-5 and caught the Sunday games down the pub along with everyone else. How many people believe in God anymore any way? The always omni-potent being is now less popular than the Kardashians, One Direction and even Peter Andre. The blue rinse brigade who still pump large fortunes into the church are the last stragglers, needing to wake up and smell the proverbial coffee. Now that money if not required for the church could be siphoned off to fund other big community projects. We could put it to use to aid volunteers cleaning the canal, sweeping the streets, and even hugging hoodies. The fact is if we had a Sunday morning barmy army of people, full of unrequited love we could put them to use for the good of the whole community, not just the god botherers. They all make pretty good cakes to, perhaps instead of the bake sale for the Church, we could have a sale to kick start the British economy. We could hold them in the redundant churches and halls, and make an event of it, including a tombola on the altar, and apple bobbing in the font.

[blackdog]

Achilles says:

Nothing about disestablishment.

[Timbo]

Nothing about disestablishment.

Or in fact Anti or tarianism.

[Strafin]

Nothing about disestablishment.

I listed several positive outcomes of the church being disbanded, the terms of he debate were that I was on the side of the proposition, therefore my position was implied.

[Strafin]

Also the debate was to be in two parts but was stopped before the end. There numerous requests for people to read the whole debate before passing judgement.

[Strafin]

Or in fact Anti or tarianism.

Crickey, dumb it down a little Timbo! What does that mean?

[blackdog]

I listed several positive outcomes of the church being disbanded, the terms of he debate were that I was on the side of the proposition, therefore my position was implied.

Disestablishment does not mean that the church would be disbanded, the C of E would (will?) carry on pretty much as it is now post-disestablishment. I'm sorry, but, to me, your argument only implied that you didn't know what disestablishment was.

The disestablishment / antidisestablishment argument is essentially political, religion has relatively little to do with it and the continued existence of the C of E has nothing to do with it.

I would also suggest that, when proposing the motion in a debate, it is not a good idea to leave the audience to 'imply' your position on the topic.

[Andy Capp]

I would also suggest that, when proposing the motion in a debate, it is not a good idea to leave the audience to 'imply' your position on the topic.

I think what Strafin meant to say was that he was playing devil's advocate rather than expressing a view he felt to be true.

To be fair to Strafin, disestablish can also mean abolish or cancel, but it is a moot point now as the debate has been cancelled.

[Timbo]

Crickey, dumb it down a little Timbo! What does that mean?

Consider it a puzzle. Anti...______..tarianism
I probably jumbled up a few letters but hey.

[On the edge]

I suspect that the proposition actually reflects what many would say if asked the same question. That's because we've actually lost sight of what the British constitution actually means. That might be difficult for some, because its not written down for the most part. Our Monarch is at the head and she rules (constitutionally) through the establishment. That is the Armed Forces, the Law (Judges and Courts), the Government, and the Church. Ironically, the independent interplay between these elements actually gives us our freedoms. For instance; parliament is subject to scrutiny and censure by an independent judiciary, but there are other controls to prevent abuse. Ironically, many practicing Christians believe the Church should be disestablished (the CofE that is) but if you do disestablish, where do you stop and what do you put in its place? Its evolved over the past 1000 plus years and has survived - unlike many more recent 'modern and up to date' methods. Europe is the most likely replacement model and that works well doesn't it?

[blackdog]

Disestablishment has been debated for over 100 years, I don't suppose there are many new arguments to be heard, but, in an increasingly secular, multicultural society has the antidisestablishment argument weakened?

Why do you need to put anything in its place if you disestablish the Church of England? It won't go away, it will still be there with the Archbishops spouting forth from time to time in order to embarrass the government. Perhaps it would be a more powerful moral guide if it wasn't intrinsically linked with the state and hence, to some extent, party to the actions of government? Is it really right for one church out of the many that serve the British population be granted political power? Are believers in mythical beings really the best people to be given these powers?

As an atheist it is easier to make pro-disestablishment points but I don't really have a strong view on the matter; part of me quite likes the easy going nature of the CofE - when I compare it with other churches I'm not sure I find any better way of catering for those with a need to believe. I then wonder whether its ties with secular government don't help it to be more moderate, more tolerant of secular values than many other churches. While people want to believe in gods I'm not too unhappy with the CofE approach and am a little worried that disestablishment would rid us of something pretty decent and see the CofE radicalise - perhaps even making religion more prevalent in politics (just look at the USA).

[dannyboy]

I think what Strafin meant to say was that he was playing devil's advocate rather than expressing a view he felt to be true.

To be fair to Strafin, disestablish can also mean abolish or cancel, but it is a moot point now as the debate has been cancelled.

Oy, sod off the DA is my costume.......

[Andy Capp]

Oy, sod off the DA is my costume.......

Don't shoot the messenger; it's Strafin you need to have a word with!