Solar Farm Options

[Simon Kirby]

Story in NewburyToday this week about a solar farm planned for Crookham Common interested me.

I'm generally interested in renewable and land-use and this story has both. It looks like the plan is to install a significant array of solar panels on a worked-out gravel quarry on a farm off the Crookham Road.

The report is frustratingly vague on numbers but a back-of-an-envelope guestimate suggests it'll cover a couple of acres and have an installed capacity of around 1.2 MW, which is relatively big for PV solar. For comparison a typical domestic rooftop installation will be maybe 3 kW, George Goes Green was if I can remember around 30 kW, and the company planning the Crookham farm have one installed in the New Forest at 5 MW and that's about as big as the UK has seen so far, and it produces as much energy as a big on-shore wind turbine.

The Crookham project looks like it'll produce something like 1,000,000 units per year, and that's the combined annual consumption of 300 typical households. If I understand the new feed-in tariffs right I think the scheme will bring in around £100k per year, though it'll probably cost £1M to build so it's not exactly easy money.

Points of interest for me are:

It's a novel form of farm-diversification, and it's a useful source of renewable energy. I sceptical that pico-PV rooftom installations, as favoured by the weirdie-beardies of the most limp dem persuasion, are anything but green posturing, but large-scale PV is an interesting possibility if it doesn't cover valuable farmland with solar panels.

[dannyboy]

We should start using less electricity, not start covering our green & pleasant land with solar panels.

[On the edge]

I haven't seen any decent numbers yet - so your observation is probably right, not easy money even with subsidy. Interesting things developing though - such as battery development, which might provide direct storage. Might also mean battery trains - which could give us some electrification at a far lower cost biug gaps between track pickups. Dannyboy's trusim might also be viable once we have the lower use appliances and the impetus to save.

[dannyboy]

Unfortunately I have no faith in the 'green' energy argument.

If it wasn't for the vast sums of cash being given as subsidy to thses firms, none of these schemes would be viable.

B&Q tried to get on the bandwagon a few years back ( with mini turbines etc ) - there was no financial gain at all for the householder.
We have to ask - do we want vast acres of 'waste' land turned into monoculture biofuel plantations? Or should we just drive around less?

[Simon Kirby]

Unfortunately I have no faith in the 'green' energy argument.

If it wasn't for the vast sums of cash being given as subsidy to thses firms, none of these schemes would be viable.

B&Q tried to get on the bandwagon a few years back ( with mini turbines etc ) - there was no financial gain at all for the householder.
We have to ask - do we want vast acres of 'waste' land turned into monoculture biofuel plantations? Or should we just drive around less?

Yes, I think those are the issues.

As you say, the feed-in tariffs are designed to make PV compete with conventional electricity, and if you don't believe in anthropogenic climate change then that doesn't make sense, but are you saying you're a climate change sceptics, or that developing renewables just isn't the right strategy to combat it?

Monocultures of biofuel plantations is a different issue isn't it? This solar farm is going on a worked-out gravel pit if I understand the report correctly, so what is your objection? If it was going on arable land then there is a problem if too much land is taken out of food production because food becomes scarce and expensive, and that's the problem with growing bio-fuels, but that's not happening here.

[dannyboy]

Yes, I think those are the issues.

As you say, the feed-in tariffs are designed to make PV compete with conventional electricity, and if you don't believe in anthropogenic climate change then that doesn't make sense, but are you saying you're a climate change sceptics, or that developing renewables just isn't the right strategy to combat it?

Monocultures of biofuel plantations is a different issue isn't it? This solar farm is going on a worked-out gravel pit if I understand the report correctly, so what is your objection? If it was going on arable land then there is a problem if too much land is taken out of food production because food becomes scarce and expensive, and that's the problem with growing bio-fuels, but that's not happening here.

No believe humans have increased, to alarming levels, the natural rate at which climate changes. Ploar Bears are not that old a species, but they adapted to the Polar regions. That takes time. Now their habitat is all but gone. In a few generations.

Renewables need to be explored, but the cost of these isn't being fully accounted for.

The planet is a smal place. B**** are busy grubbing up untouched 'waste' land in India to plant non indigenous willow for bio fuel. They say it is green. is it? Part of the Bee problem in America has been attributed to the vast acres of single species Bees are forced to dine on. Can Man survive by bread alone? Can Bees - the American experience seems to say not.

My objection is that worked out gravel pits are not industrial land - sticking acres of solar cells on them make them this. Grundon tried the same argument not so long ago & were shot down in flames. Worked out gravel pits should be turned into industrial land through the normal planning process - not by sticking some power plant on them.

[Andy Capp]

My objection is that worked out gravel pits are not industrial land - sticking acres of solar cells on them make them this. Grundon tried the same argument not so long ago & were shot down in flames. Worked out gravel pits should be turned into industrial land through the normal planning process - not by sticking some power plant on them.

I don't quite follow your argument, but I would say that chimney pot power stations have a regressive image, where as solar panels have a progressive image.

[lordtup]

Of all the " alternative " energy sources currently under consideration surely solar power has the most promise. The sun is roughly half way through it's life which means we could possibly have unlimited cheap power for a very long time. I was informed , ( verification needed ), that if the Sahara dessert was covered in solar panels it would generate sufficient energy to keep the whole of Europe supplied .
Now I am not naive enough to think it's a simple matter of putting a few panels on a bit of waste ground or that the technology doesn't need more research ,but to ignore a ready made energy supply is simply crazy.

[Newbelly]

I was informed , ( verification needed ), that if the Sahara dessert was covered in solar panels it would generate sufficient energy to keep the whole of Europe supplied .

How would you get the power from the Sahara to northern Europe?. Would it not require incredibly high transmisson voltages to overcome the distance?

[Simon Kirby]

Of all the " alternative " energy sources currently under consideration surely solar power has the most promise. The sun is roughly half way through it's life which means we could possibly have unlimited cheap power for a very long time. I was informed , ( verification needed ), that if the Sahara dessert was covered in solar panels it would generate sufficient energy to keep the whole of Europe supplied .
Now I am not naive enough to think it's a simple matter of putting a few panels on a bit of waste ground or that the technology doesn't need more research ,but to ignore a ready made energy supply is simply crazy.

A quick check of that factoid: area of the Sahara is 9,400,000 km^2, and PV can generate maybe 1 kW/m^2, so that's a potential electrical power plant of around 10^13 kW. World power consumption from all sources (oil, coal, nuclear, renewables) is around 10^10 kW, so yes, there's the capacity there to generate 1,000 time more power than the world currently uses.

Of course the environmental damage caused by taking that much energy out of the ecosystem would most likely destroy the world, and if that didn't then the wars over land rights in Africa certainly would, so it's sort of interesting, but it does place important limits on renewables.

[Penelope]

How would you get the power from the Sahara to northern Europe?. Would it not require incredibly high transmisson voltages to overcome the distance?

Magic Moonbeams?

[dannyboy]

I don't quite follow your argument, but I would say that chimney pot power stations have a regressive image, where as solar panels have a progressive image.

Acres & acres of them?

There is also something not quite right about the way in which houses are covered in the things.

[Simon Kirby]

Acres & acres of them?

Just to put the thing in perspective, if you laid a 2m strip of solar panels along both sides of every road in the UK that would be enough to generate all the energy we use in the UK from all sources - coal, gas, nuclear, renewables, the lot. So yes, total dependancy on solar PV would require acres and acres, but spread over a large area that's not so intrusive, considerably less intrusive than the roads that already cover our green and pleasant land - a land that, IMHO, won't remain green and pleasant unless we end our dependence on fossil fuels.

[dannyboy]

Just to put the thing in perspective, if you laid a 2m strip of solar panels along both sides of every road in the UK that would be enough to generate all the energy we use in the UK from all sources - coal, gas, nuclear, renewables, the lot. So yes, total dependancy on solar PV would require acres and acres, but spread over a large area that's not so intrusive, considerably less intrusive than the roads that already cover our green and pleasant land - a land that, IMHO, won't remain green and pleasant unless we end our dependence on fossil fuels.

Intrusivity won't be on the mind of the investors lining up to make $$$ from the subsidies. They'll use the green tricket to ensure as many solar farms ( interesting that green power is always a farm & not a factory ) are built as fast as possible.

Reminds me of the mad dash to cable up Britain as fast as possibe in the 1980s - & then satellite TV came along....

Interesting to read this morning that onshore wind is having its subsidy cut.

[dannyboy]

dp

[Newbelly]

Reminds me of the mad dash to cable up Britain as fast as possibe in the 1980s - & then satellite TV came along....

I subscribed to Croydon Cable back in the 1980s. It was all underground, used exisiting ducting where possible and delivered a good phone and TV service. No legions of unsightly satellite dishes that completely blight once pleasant-looking multi-occupational premises.

[dannyboy]

I subscribed to Croydon Cable back in the 1980s. It was all underground, used exisiting ducting where possible and delivered a good phone and TV service. No legions of unsightly satellite dishes that completely blight once pleasant-looking multi-occupational premises.

Very true.

The dish again was a cheap & fast way of making a quick buck. Already outdated thanks to the advent of fibre optic phone cables.

[Andy Capp]

Acres & acres of them?

I don't know, but that wasn't your original point when you drew a comparison between Chieveley and the Thatcham proposal.

I would say that if 'chimney' power stations were replaced by solar power stations, that would be an aesthetic improvement, and I would also agree with Simon on his idea of strategic panel placement, like at the side of roads.

[Andy Capp]

Very true.

The dish again was a cheap & fast way of making a quick buck. Already outdated thanks to the advent of fibre optic phone cables.

So how long should we await for technology to have it sussed before we take a punt with the technology we have at the time?

I also disagree that dishes are out dated, although their need is in transition. There are places that still need them, and at the time dishes were being fitted, there was no guarantee when a suitable alternative was going. to be rolled out. It took the popularity of the dish, as it were, to sponsor enthusiasm for an alternative.

[dannyboy]

I don't know, but that wasn't your original point when you drew a comparison between Chieveley and the Thatcham proposal.

I would say that if 'chimney' power stations were replaced by solar power stations, that would be an aesthetic improvement, and I would also agree with Simon on his idea of strategic panel placement, like at the side of roads.

I'd imagine the reflection from a panel would be a road safety issue.

I'm old fashioned - I prefer buildings.

I'd rather see a large glass house to fields of poly tunnels for instance.