Nelson Mandela Options

[Bartholomew]

You're entitled to hold an opinion. That doesn't automatically mean it's one that's entitled to respect though.

What's going to be really nauseating is watching Cameron stand up and hail Mandela as some kind of Statesman.

In 1985 Cameron was a leading light in the Federation of Conservative Students who produced the infamous "Hang Nelson Mandela" posters. Then, in 1989 when he worked in the Tory Policy Unit at Conservative Central Office he went on an anti-sanctions 'fact finding' mission to South Africa with a pro apartheid Lobby firm which was then found to be sponsored by Botha himself.

Lets see how two-faced Cameron can be when Mandela finally shuffles off.

I'm not fully sure that you have much idea about South African politics at the time of the end of apartheid. PW "Botha himself" was, along with FW de Klerk the architect of the end of apartheid. He started the end of Afrikaans rule (note that this isn't the same a white rule as many of the whites were as disenfranchised as the the rest of the non white community). South Africa was a very violent splintered set of societies and Cameron in all likelihood learnt more from this visit than anyone sitting in the UK and maybe this had a different set of results than those publicly displayed. PW Botha was in a situation where he knew that his government's time was limited and had to balance the Afrikaans military and the end of apartheid. This was a very difficult position and once he left, FW de Klerk continued and concluded his initial movement.
I lived through this time in South Africa and only learned what was happening behind the scenes in the last 10 or so years. What I saw and what I now know still astounds me. People of different races and colour I thought were staunch racists turned out to be the opposite. The state machinery was run by a few politicians (mainly military) that were more interested in control than colour. Much of this in my view was caused by a solid Afrikaans nationalism started and further enhanced by British rule and mistakes.
Mandela, in my view, is one of the greatest statesmen in history and Cameron is right in saying this. In Mandela's (and many other South Africans) situation, I would have wanted retribution rather than reconciliation. He is an outstanding example of showing support and understanding of everyone around him, including those than wanted to harm him.
As for Cameron being two faced, I think that what he understood at the time and what he knows now are two different things. Two faced in my view is different from learning from mistakes. Maybe he has a different opinion now that the situation is different.

[Simon Kirby]

I'm not fully sure that you have much idea about South African politics at the time of the end of apartheid. PW "Botha himself" was, along with FW de Klerk the architect of the end of apartheid. He started the end of Afrikaans rule (note that this isn't the same a white rule as many of the whites were as disenfranchised as the the rest of the non white community). South Africa was a very violent splintered set of societies and Cameron in all likelihood learnt more from this visit than anyone sitting in the UK and maybe this had a different set of results than those publicly displayed. PW Botha was in a situation where he knew that his government's time was limited and had to balance the Afrikaans military and the end of apartheid. This was a very difficult position and once he left, FW de Klerk continued and concluded his initial movement.
I lived through this time in South Africa and only learned what was happening behind the scenes in the last 10 or so years. What I saw and what I now know still astounds me. People of different races and colour I thought were staunch racists turned out to be the opposite. The state machinery was run by a few politicians (mainly military) that were more interested in control than colour. Much of this in my view was caused by a solid Afrikaans nationalism started and further enhanced by British rule and mistakes.
Mandela, in my view, is one of the greatest statesmen in history and Cameron is right in saying this. In Mandela's (and many other South Africans) situation, I would have wanted retribution rather than reconciliation. He is an outstanding example of showing support and understanding of everyone around him, including those than wanted to harm him.
As for Cameron being two faced, I think that what he understood at the time and what he knows now are two different things. Two faced in my view is different from learning from mistakes. Maybe he has a different opinion now that the situation is different.

Thanks for that helpful post.

[Squelchy]

Thanks for that helpful post.

You mean the Botha who had been a member of the Ossewabrandwag and refused to testify at the Government's Truth and Reconciliation Commission for exposing apartheid-era crimes. They, the TRC, found that he had ordered the bombing of the South African Council of Churches headquarters in Johannesburg. In August 1998 he was fined and given a suspended jail sentence for his refusal to testify in relation to human rights violations and the violence sanctioned by the State Security Council (SSC) which he, as president until 1989, had directed. That one?

[Bartholomew]

You mean the Botha who had been a member of the Ossewabrandwag and refused to testify at the Government's Truth and Reconciliation Commission for exposing apartheid-era crimes. They, the TRC, found that he had ordered the bombing of the South African Council of Churches headquarters in Johannesburg. In August 1998 he was fined and given a suspended jail sentence for his refusal to testify in relation to human rights violations and the violence sanctioned by the State Security Council (SSC) which he, as president until 1989, had directed. That one?

As I said before the situation in South Africa was very confused with many different objectives from different groups. People were doing things that would be considered unacceptable in present society including the current administration (who were responsible for many acts of violence). Even raising these points, Botha started the dismantling of apartheid and we should recognise this. He obviously had many things that he probably isn't proud of but loyalties can cause apparently odd decisions.
I don't excuse anyone who did things like this. What still amazes me in South Africa is that these acts of violence have been put in perspective and whilst not forgotten are now in the past. I suspect that many reading this could learn from it.

[Bartholomew]

You mean the Botha who had been a member of the Ossewabrandwag and refused to testify at the Government's Truth and Reconciliation Commission for exposing apartheid-era crimes. They, the TRC, found that he had ordered the bombing of the South African Council of Churches headquarters in Johannesburg. In August 1998 he was fined and given a suspended jail sentence for his refusal to testify in relation to human rights violations and the violence sanctioned by the State Security Council (SSC) which he, as president until 1989, had directed. That one?

You forgot to mention that the TRC subsequently overturned the charge. Its also interesting that his wife was offered a state funeral when he died in 2006. His wife turned this down.

[Bartholomew]

You mean the Botha who had been a member of the Ossewabrandwag

A final reply to put this in perspective. The Boer republics (Transvaal or South African Republic, Orange Free State and a host of others) were created by the descendants of Dutch settlers who wanted independence from Britain. Not all of the were white - Griqualand East and West were created and inhabited by coloured populations. Various issues lead to Britain either annexing them or going to war to claim them. Britain has the dubious claim to have created concentration camps for the civilian population during the Boer wars and the destruction of farms and residences to stop Boer forces having bases created immense hatred for the British. This had tensions that went right through to independence and the creation of the Republic of South Africa (which included the Transvaal and OFS) in the 1960s.
Taking this into account, is it surprising that PW Botha was a member of the Ossewabrandwag? The fact that this was disbanded in 1948 rather takes away the implications of the post.
Its easy to criticise without knowledge of the circumstances and even easier to take things in isolation and create apparently sensational headlines. South Africa in the 1980s was a complicated place.

[Weavers Walk]

The fact that it was disbanded in 1948 means he stopped holding those views did it? I'd have thought it just meant that as they'd lost the war they decided it was 'low profile time'.

As to it being a complicated place, those 'Hang Nelson Mandela' posters printed by Cameron and his cronies seem pretty un-complicated.

[Bartholomew]

The fact that it was disbanded in 1948 means he stopped holding those views did it? I'd have thought it just meant that as they'd lost the war they decided it was 'low profile time'.

He probably did hold those views to an extent, unsurprising in view of the way the British acted in the South African wars and later in dealing with the republics - something that was his Afrikaans heritage. This organisation had a pro Nazi anti British stance and was too extreme for the general Afrikaans population. The Union government interred many of the members during the second world war and the sentiment changed enough after the war to disband it.
The point I was making and have made several times is that whatever his views he started the destruction of apartheid and helped in the creation of South Africa as it is today. The reference to "Botha himself" implies something quite different.

As to it being a complicated place, those 'Hang Nelson Mandela' posters printed by Cameron and his cronies seem pretty un-complicated.

I was referring to South Africa and this reference is to Britain. Again the point I made previously is that its easy to make uninformed judgements and this poster is a good example of that.

[Simon Kirby]

The point I was making and have made several times is that whatever his views he started the destruction of apartheid and helped in the creation of South Africa as it is today. The reference to "Botha himself" implies something quite different.

That there were such extreme views makes SA's relatively peaceful transition from white minority rule all the more remarkable, and it would appear that Mandela played a central role in promoting peace. Glib perhaps to characterize a complicated social change in one single event, but Mandela at the Rugby World Cup wearing the Springbok over his heart and handing Francois Pienaar the cup is a powerful image, and all the more powerful if you understand the cultural significance of rugby union in SA. Kind of like Gerry Adams in an orange suit going to mass with Ian Paisley.