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> Garvie and Two Saints
Exhausted
post Apr 13 2013, 12:08 PM
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On Thursday 4th April, a front page article penned by local reporter Brian Radford, read as though the Two Saints hostel at the top of the Newtown hill was providing end of life plans for some of the no-hopers. This episode was joined by our local labour representative Richard Garvie in yet one more attempt to get his name in the paper in support of his local ambitions. He has decided that he needed to demand WBC and Two Saints to disclose answers to several of his questions. All of this was included in the article, so some collusion between the reporter and the Labour party representative seems obvious.

When I and several others read the article, we came to the conclusion that there was someone up there offering illegal life termination, assisted suicide. A bit worrying we thought

But, hold on, in a letter in this weeks Newbury Weekly News from Louise Barnden, the Chief Exec of Two Saints it presents a totally different picture which, if correct, suggests that there is no foundation in the original article and I tend to believe her. Mr Garvie, has been given and taken the opportunity to visit the institution and has made a magnanimous gesture to become a volunteer. That said, the footnote by the NWN says that he still has questions and genuine concerns. If I was running Two Saints, my reply to his offer would be thank you but no thanks.

I wonder how much damage has been done to a local charitable organisation by this piece of, what I consider under the circumstances, irresponsible reporting.
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NWNREADER
post Apr 13 2013, 01:02 PM
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QUOTE (Exhausted @ Apr 13 2013, 12:08 PM) *
On Thursday 4th April, a front page article penned by local reporter Brian Radford, read as though the Two Saints hostel at the top of the Newtown hill was providing end of life plans for some of the no-hopers. This episode was joined by our local labour representative Richard Garvie in yet one more attempt to get his name in the paper in support of his local ambitions. He has decided that he needed to demand WBC and Two Saints to disclose answers to several of his questions. All of this was included in the article, so some collusion between the reporter and the Labour party representative seems obvious.

When I and several others read the article, we came to the conclusion that there was someone up there offering illegal life termination, assisted suicide. A bit worrying we thought

But, hold on, in a letter in this weeks Newbury Weekly News from Louise Barnden, the Chief Exec of Two Saints it presents a totally different picture which, if correct, suggests that there is no foundation in the original article and I tend to believe her. Mr Garvie, has been given and taken the opportunity to visit the institution and has made a magnanimous gesture to become a volunteer. That said, the footnote by the NWN says that he still has questions and genuine concerns. If I was running Two Saints, my reply to his offer would be thank you but no thanks.

I wonder how much damage has been done to a local charitable organisation by this piece of, what I consider under the circumstances, irresponsible reporting.

You misunderstand... RG secured the changes that mean the original claims are (now) without foundation!
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Rowley Birkin
post Apr 13 2013, 04:13 PM
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QUOTE (NWNREADER @ Apr 13 2013, 01:02 PM) *
You misunderstand... RG secured the changes that mean the original claims are (now) without foundation!
the letter says he never visited the place
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Richard Garvie
post Apr 13 2013, 04:50 PM
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This story has a long way to run and I will publish my response to Louise's letter when I return home this evening. Ultimately, she has used a genuine offer from myself to wotk with some residents to find employment as a cynical attempt to dismiss the article in the previous week's paper.

Unfortnately, there are some further revelations to come, including advice from the department for health. What has happened at this hostel and other hostels in the past needs to be investigated and I'm sure when all things are said and done, we will have some genuine answers for the families of people who have died at the hostel.
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NWNREADER
post Apr 13 2013, 06:32 PM
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QUOTE (Richard Garvie @ Apr 13 2013, 04:50 PM) *
This story has a long way to run and I will publish my response to Louise's letter when I return home this evening. Ultimately, she has used a genuine offer from myself to wotk with some residents to find employment as a cynical attempt to dismiss the article in the previous week's paper.

Unfortnately, there are some further revelations to come, including advice from the department for health. What has happened at this hostel and other hostels in the past needs to be investigated and I'm sure when all things are said and done, we will have some genuine answers for the families of people who have died at the hostel.


Many of the people at the hostel (not all, before you jump down my throat) don't have family, which is why they are there.....

Further revelations to come? You mean you are holding information back? Why?
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Cognosco
post Apr 13 2013, 06:40 PM
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QUOTE (NWNREADER @ Apr 13 2013, 07:32 PM) *
Many of the people at the hostel (not all, before you jump down my throat) don't have family, which is why they are there.....

Further revelations to come? You mean you are holding information back? Why?


Typical politician........ he hasn't made it up yet? rolleyes.gif


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Richard Garvie
post Apr 13 2013, 10:02 PM
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QUOTE (NWNREADER @ Apr 13 2013, 07:32 PM) *
Many of the people at the hostel (not all, before you jump down my throat) don't have family, which is why they are there.....

Further revelations to come? You mean you are holding information back? Why?


I am still meeting ex residents, families and ex employees, who have all raised issues about the governance at the hostel. Once those meetings are complete, I will meet with two saints, health officials and the police to discuss issues and concerns.

What I can tell you is that I will be asking the police to investigate certain issues.
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Exhausted
post Apr 13 2013, 10:14 PM
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QUOTE (Rowley Birkin @ Apr 13 2013, 05:13 PM) *
the letter says he never visited the place


I quote from the letter....

We can say that the local Labour party representative has visited 210 Newtown Road and met with our regional director since the reporter spoke to him and has seen the services provided at the hostel for himself; in fact he has now offered to volunteer with Two Saints to help some of our clients with their work prospects and to promote more positive media coverage of the service we run.

Obviously, Richard Garvie wants this to run hence the revelation that there is more to come and is now casting his net over " ....what has happened at this hostel and other hostels in the past".

I feel sure that this hostel which cares for and provides accommodation for Newbury's vulnerable persons, has an uphill struggle to do what it does and doesn't need so much adverse publicity. If he has more to offer on the subject, so be it but I trust he will not get too carried away with this sort of publicity by bigging up minor operational problems.
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Exhausted
post Apr 13 2013, 10:29 PM
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QUOTE (Richard Garvie @ Apr 13 2013, 05:50 PM) *
This story has a long way to run and I will publish my response to Louise's letter when I return home this evening. Ultimately, she has used a genuine offer from myself to wotk with some residents to find employment as a cynical attempt to dismiss the article in the previous week's paper.

Unfortnately, there are some further revelations to come, including advice from the department for health. What has happened at this hostel and other hostels in the past needs to be investigated and I'm sure when all things are said and done, we will have some genuine answers for the families of people who have died at the hostel.


I don't see her reply as cynical at all.

Your mention of deaths at the hostel seems to imply that there have been many. The figures from the Chief executive are a little more reassuring. Two in 2011/12, one a drugs overdose and two in 2004/2005. That to be honest seems low to me bearing in mind the state that some of their residents get themselves into by drug and alcohol abuse.

Push the boat out by all means, but do make sure you have a paddle to get you out of the creek.
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Richard Garvie
post Apr 13 2013, 10:35 PM
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QUOTE (Exhausted @ Apr 13 2013, 11:29 PM) *
I don't see her reply as cynical at all.

Your mention of deaths at the hostel seems to imply that there have been many. The figures from the Chief executive are a little more reassuring. Two in 2011/12, one a drugs overdose and two in 2004/2005. That to be honest seems low to me bearing in mind the state that some of their residents get themselves into by drug and alcohol abuse.

Push the boat out by all means, but do make sure you have a paddle to get you out of the creek.


I think it's about getting answers for those who need them. The six or so people who died in or around the hostel that I know of, the two who died on trains of an OD after visiting the hostel, allegations of rape, assault, dealing, using... a lot of which the police were not even called.

This need not appear in the papers again, but Louise and her team need to be honest about what went on in the past.
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pbonnay
post Apr 13 2013, 11:32 PM
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QUOTE (Richard Garvie @ Apr 13 2013, 11:35 PM) *
I think it's about getting answers for those who need them. The six or so people who died in or around the hostel that I know of, the two who died on trains of an OD after visiting the hostel, allegations of rape, assault, dealing, using... a lot of which the police were not even called.

This need not appear in the papers again, but Louise and her team need to be honest about what went on in the past.


Richard

You appear to be making some serious allegations, I do hope, for your sake, you are on solid ground.

Further, if you believe or suspect criminal offences to have taken place and think there may be a police investigation resulting in a prosecution, then it might be an idea to think carefully about what you say in the public domain about this.
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Ruwan Uduwerage-...
post Apr 14 2013, 06:00 AM
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QUOTE (Richard Garvie @ Apr 13 2013, 11:02 PM) *
I am still meeting ex residents, families and ex employees, who have all raised issues about the governance at the hostel. Once those meetings are complete, I will meet with two saints, health officials and the police to discuss issues and concerns.

What I can tell you is that I will be asking the police to investigate certain issues.


I could not agree more with the views of @pbonnay.

Richard, with the greatest respect, and let me say that I applaud the demonstration of civic responsibility, but if the concerns that you allude are of an abusive, neglectful or other criminal nature and people are or have been put at risk then you should hand this infrmation over to the Police now.

Please feel free to give me a call if you are unsure of who to speak to and how to present the information, but I can assure you that the Police will be keen to hear what you have to say, but it is they who should undertake an investigation, as they have the experience, knowledge, understanding, skills and ability to do this most effectively.

Further discussion on this point should cease in any public forum for fairness to be maintained. If people have any information, they should pass this to the correct authorities so that a responsible and impartial investigation may be undertaken in a professional and fair manner whereby guilt or innocence are not presumed from the outset.

Ruwan Uduwerage-Perera
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On the edge
post Apr 14 2013, 06:59 AM
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I think most of us can well understand the reluctance of anyone to involve the Police, particularly matters which touch public services. Their reported actions of recent times have severely damaged confidence in both the institution and the officers. Challenge in any organisation is a good thing, if there is no substance, rebuttal is simply responding with the facts, if rebuttal becomes simply demands that the challenge stops, most reasonable people would think there may be another reason.

Fairness is best served by open honesty.


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NWNREADER
post Apr 14 2013, 11:05 AM
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Even well-intended investigations by people who do not know and practice all the current legal constraints endanger any future formal enquiries by the enforcement agencies.
Also, charities like the various operators of 210 Newtown Road take on the provision of a service RG says is overloaded. Does he want the place to close?
Many of the residents have 'problems'; providing for them is an enormous challenge but independent charities are an excellent method of delivery.
Tread carefully, Richard, or you could easily be remembered for all the wrong reasons. Never, ever, do theses things in the name of a political party/cause
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On the edge
post Apr 14 2013, 12:19 PM
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QUOTE (NWNREADER @ Apr 14 2013, 12:05 PM) *
Even well-intended investigations by people who do not know and practice all the current legal constraints endanger any future formal enquiries by the enforcement agencies.
Also, charities like the various operators of 210 Newtown Road take on the provision of a service RG says is overloaded. Does he want the place to close?
Many of the residents have 'problems'; providing for them is an enormous challenge but independent charities are an excellent method of delivery.
Tread carefully, Richard, or you could easily be remembered for all the wrong reasons. Never, ever, do theses things in the name of a political party/cause


I think the enforcement agencies have discredited themselves, in Newbury at least, there is no political challenge, so the only alternative is what is happening right now.

Yes, of course, the Charity is providing a valuable service and there will be enormous challenges putting matters to right if need be. However, that's letting emotion get in the way of good governance. Remember once we believed that all nurses were angels and all police officers had integrity.

Whatever his political motives, the challenge is right. The thing that is wrong is that our present politicians haven't picked this up, or even now come back with any substantive response.

Watching the local scene, there are those, who think Two Saints does a great job, but... Telling people to back off is a bit like silencing a whistle blower.

Personally, I do hope he comes up with absolutely nothing BUT at least the windows would have been opened and some fresh air let in.


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Richard Garvie
post Apr 14 2013, 01:42 PM
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QUOTE (NWNREADER @ Apr 14 2013, 12:05 PM) *
Even well-intended investigations by people who do not know and practice all the current legal constraints endanger any future formal enquiries by the enforcement agencies.
Also, charities like the various operators of 210 Newtown Road take on the provision of a service RG says is overloaded. Does he want the place to close?
Many of the residents have 'problems'; providing for them is an enormous challenge but independent charities are an excellent method of delivery.
Tread carefully, Richard, or you could easily be remembered for all the wrong reasons. Never, ever, do theses things in the name of a political party/cause


This is not political. I have a very personal interest in homelessness and hostels and some of the allegations are horrifying!! All I'm looking to do is prevent a repeat of some of the things that have alledgedly happened.

I offered to assist two saints with career workshops personally and further support through donations from my company. I'm not saying that the hostel is an awful place, we just need certain things to be addressed.

What you have to remember is that I spent 24 hours with homeless people in Newbury and they told me some pretty awful things. The end of life plans was something that two saints admitted to without any questions and until that point I didn't even know what it was. I've seen corroner reports, witness statements and listened to grown men sobbing about their experiences. Hopefully all will be clarified but issuing a statement to the media and refusing to answer further questions was a disaster for teo saints as it made them look like they had something to hide. Coming out now debating the accuracy of a report from the paper which was compiled using her statement is too little too late. Why not be more transparent with the journalist?

Louise seems very pleasant and I understand her reasons for why two saints handled the media in the way they did. But that doesn't mean it was the correct approach.
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NWNREADER
post Apr 14 2013, 02:26 PM
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QUOTE (Richard Garvie @ Apr 14 2013, 02:42 PM) *
This is not political. I have a very personal interest in homelessness and hostels and some of the allegations are horrifying!! All I'm looking to do is prevent a repeat of some of the things that have alledgedly happened.

I offered to assist two saints with career workshops personally and further support through donations from my company. I'm not saying that the hostel is an awful place, we just need certain things to be addressed.

What you have to remember is that I spent 24 hours with homeless people in Newbury and they told me some pretty awful things. The end of life plans was something that two saints admitted to without any questions and until that point I didn't even know what it was. I've seen corroner reports, witness statements and listened to grown men sobbing about their experiences. Hopefully all will be clarified but issuing a statement to the media and refusing to answer further questions was a disaster for teo saints as it made them look like they had something to hide. Coming out now debating the accuracy of a report from the paper which was compiled using her statement is too little too late. Why not be more transparent with the journalist?

Louise seems very pleasant and I understand her reasons for why two saints handled the media in the way they did. But that doesn't mean it was the correct approach.


Over my working life I have spent 30+ years working with and around the homeless, unfortunate, etc. Your ability to patronise is amazing.
I don't know all the answers, but I do know I wouldn't have any idea after 24 hours.

If it isn't political, please ensure any reference to Newbury Labour Party is excluded form press stories, letters etc.
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post Apr 14 2013, 02:28 PM
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QUOTE (Richard Garvie @ Apr 14 2013, 02:42 PM) *
The end of life plans was something that two saints admitted to without any questions and until that point I didn't even know what it was. I've seen corroner reports, witness statements and listened to grown men sobbing about their experiences. Hopefully all will be clarified but issuing a statement to the media and refusing to answer further questions was a disaster for teo saints as it made them look like they had something to hide. Coming out now debating the accuracy of a report from the paper which was compiled using her statement is too little too late. Why not be more transparent with the journalist?

Louise seems very pleasant and I understand her reasons for why two saints handled the media in the way they did. But that doesn't mean it was the correct approach.


I do not see anywhere in the NWN report dated 4th April, any reluctance on the part of the Two Saints management to answer questions. In fact they were forthcoming with information in that report about deaths. It was you who muddied the water by asking leading questions designed to make the report appear that the deaths were some form of termination and making it clear that you operated hand in glove with a reporter whose only interest was perhaps financial, to get his story in the paper.
Questions like.....
Who specifically decides who should be subject to the plan and why?
What drugs are used?
Who signs the death certificates?
What cause of death is given?.
As far as failing to provide information, that was allegedly a West Berks Council 'spokesperson' who put the phone down when asked why homeless people had died at the hospital on an end of life plan. It is not clear who the phone was put down on, the reporter or yourself.

There is no follow up story in this weeks paper, only the very clear letter from Louise Barnden.

There are a few people on this thread that seem to be unclear as to what you are getting at and one person who feels that your objectives should not be questioned.
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On the edge
post Apr 14 2013, 03:18 PM
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QUOTE (Exhausted @ Apr 14 2013, 03:28 PM) *
'''''''''''''''There are a few people on this thread that seem to be unclear as to what you are getting at and one person who feels that your objectives should not be questioned.


Interesting spin. No, frankly I'm not interested in anyone's objective for asking a question, what difference does that make? The fact that there has been no robust response is the more telling. So far, those responses have been (in summary) shut up, be careful, and if there is an issue we'll deal with it. Do we now live in some totalitarian regime? In an earlier thread which was suggesting this be left alone, the author had apparently been involved in this activity for some 30 years. Does that not sound familiar in another similar 'could never happen here' scandal?

Free speech and open government? Nah, not us!



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NWNREADER
post Apr 14 2013, 04:24 PM
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Assuming some of that responds to what I said, be wary of mis-interpretation.

Amateur detective work can all too easily destroy a valid investigation, as can unfounded pressure to prosecute on the basis of what looks like a good story. That doesn't mean it is to be banned, just progressed with wise caution.

I have not been 'involved in the activity' (whatever you mean as I neither work in a homeless institution nor organise end of life regimes) for 30 years, but my work has brought me into contact with most of the parties involved. It is an extremely complex situation - far more than accommodating people who choose to live away from home. Some have sad and serious mental health issues for instance, that are no longer seen as conditions for treatment within the NHS. Obtaining evidence from some of the people at the sharp end can be difficult.
RGs quality should be judged by what he actually and personally achieves, not how many hares he sets running.
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