Market Costs Options

[Simon Kirby]

I made a Freedom of Information request to Wiltshire Council for their market administration costs so that I could compare the cost of running what are apparently thriving town markets in places like Devices and Marlborough with the cost of our town council running what is in all fairness Newbury's failing charter market.

Here is the response: [attachment=186:Market_Costs.pdf]

I've edited in the last two years of costs for Newbury as a comparison.

Some things stand out:

• On the whole Wiltshire run their markets at a profit, making £144k from 18 events, whereas NTC make a loss of £26k on the charter market.
• Wiltshire Council spend the same amount (£21k) on administration staff costs running all of their 18 events as Newbury Town Council spend on their one market.
• In previous years Newbury's cleansing and waste contract with WBC was outrageously high at £46k, only a little less than all of Wiltshire's markets put together. This contract was clearly not good value and NTC need to explain how their financial control process allowed this.

This last year the cleansing contract has been cancelled and the marketeers self-cleanse, but rather than pass the savings on to the tax-payer the council have loaded the running costs with a couple of bogus budget line-items, of £5k for maintenance and an outrageously high advertising budget of £5k, along with a contingency of £9k for cleansing.

It seems likely to me that the Council will be increasing the precept by 10% this year to cover what they claim is a shortfall from WBC's cuts, but it's clear to me that the Council has much more than 10% slack in its budget, and that they'll just not expect anyone to notice, and anyone who does they'll just smear as Vexatious.

[dannyboy]

So total income is £314010?


Costs are totals of £68664, 25500, 28450, 25092, 147706, 20599, 2040 makes a P/L of what exactly?

[Ruwan Uduwerage-...]

[*]On the whole Wiltshire run their markets at a profit, making £144k from 18 events, whereas NTC make a loss of £26k on the charter market.
[*]Wiltshire Council spend the same amount (£21k) on administration staff costs running all of their 18 events as Newbury Town Council spend on their one market.
[*]In previous years Newbury's cleansing and waste contract with WBC was outrageously high at £46k, only a little less than all of Wiltshire's markets put together. This contract was clearly not good value and NTC need to explain how their financial control process allowed this.
[/list]
This last year the cleansing contract has been cancelled and the marketeers self-cleanse, but rather than pass the savings on to the tax-payer the council have loaded the running costs with a couple of bogus budget line-items, of £5k for maintenance and an outrageously high advertising budget of £5k, along with a contingency of £9k for cleansing.

It seems likely to me that the Council will be increasing the precept by 10% this year to cover what they claim is a shortfall from WBC's cuts, but it's clear to me that the Council has much more than 10% slack in its budget, and that they'll just not expect anyone to notice, and anyone who does they'll just smear as Vexatious.

Dear Simon,

You have raised some interesting questions here regarding the market and those in Wiltshire, and I will seek the answers and come back to the Forum in the near future.

With a cut of almost 10% to the overall budget of the council, I can assure everyone that we are somewhat focussed on improving our level of service, whilst having to make savings.

All suggestions regarding improving the effectiveness and efficiency of the council whilst making economic savings will be considered.

Yours sincerely

Ruwan Uduwerage-Perera

Newbury Town Council - Councillor for Victoria Ward & Deputy Leader

[Simon Kirby]

So total income is £314010?


Costs are totals of £68664, 25500, 28450, 25092, 147706, 20599, 2040 makes a P/L of what exactly?

Thanks for that. Yes, the total income is right, but the "Running Costs (Excl Admin)" column is actually the sum of the previous four columns: "Staff Costs - On Ground Manging Markets/Rent", "Cleanisng Costs", "Waste Collection Costs", and "Other Costs - Vans etc".

The final net profit/cost column is income less the sum of the three columns "Running Costs (Excl Admin)", "Admin Costs-Staff", and "Corporate Backoffice/Comms costs".

I hadn't spotted that "Running Costs (Excl Admin)" was a summary column so I've spread Newbury's costs across all of the columns (and I didn't apportion any back-office costs either as I know how vexatious NTC find that).

[Simon Kirby]

Dear Simon,

You have raised some interesting questions here regarding the market and those in Wiltshire, and I will seek the answers and come back to the Forum in the near future.

With a cut of almost 10% to the overall budget of the council, I can assure everyone that we are somewhat focussed on improving our level of service, whilst having to make savings.

All suggestions regarding improving the effectiveness and efficiency of the council whilst making economic savings will be considered.

Yours sincerely

Ruwan Uduwerage-Perera

Newbury Town Council - Councillor for Victoria Ward & Deputy Leader

Thanks Ruwan.

What is encouraging about some of those other markets (I'm thinking Marlborough particularly as I know it) is that town markets can still be very successful and can be an asset to a town, and I would like to see Newbury's market thriving.

[dannyboy]

Dear Simon,

You have raised some interesting questions here regarding the market and those in Wiltshire, and I will seek the answers and come back to the Forum in the near future.

With a cut of almost 10% to the overall budget of the council, I can assure everyone that we are somewhat focussed on improving our level of service, whilst having to make savings.

All suggestions regarding improving the effectiveness and efficiency of the council whilst making economic savings will be considered.

Yours sincerely

Ruwan Uduwerage-Perera

Newbury Town Council - Councillor for Victoria Ward & Deputy Leader

I have suggestion - put up the rent so that costs = income.

[Andy Capp]

I have suggestion - put up the rent so that costs = income.

You've just exposed your Lib Dem credentials!

[dannyboy]

You've just exposed your Lib Dem credentials!

what makes you think that?

more chance of me exposing my tits.

I am of the opinion that our overly eager follow poster, should the Wilts / West Berks position be reversed, would be wanting to know why our council was exploiting the market traders to the tune of 60%......

[Andy Capp]

what makes you think that? more chance of me exposing my tits.

'twas a joke!

I am of the opinion that our overly eager follow poster, should the Wilts / West Berks position be reversed, would be wanting to know why our council was exploiting the market traders to the tune of 60%......

That might be true, but when the ambition is to cut costs, it is a legitimate question to ask why the market could not be made to pay for itself. I doubt anyone is advocating the council exploit anyone.

[On the edge]

I am of the opinion that our overly eager follow poster, should the Wilts / West Berks position be reversed, would be wanting to know why our council was exploiting the market traders to the tune of 60%......

Quite simply market forces. Would be wholly up to the traders to decide if they wanted to be exploited, if they didn't they wouldn't turn up. In our case, due to what at best is ineptitude, it's us the charge payers being exploited!

You complained in an earlier response that public service always got slagged off when it tries to do commercial things. The market is a classic case of why.

[dannyboy]

Quite simply market forces. Would be wholly up to the traders to decide if they wanted to be exploited, if they didn't they wouldn't turn up. In our case, due to what at best is ineptitude, it's us the charge payers being exploited!

You complained in an earlier response that public service always got slagged off when it tries to do commercial things. The market is a classic case of why.

LOL, interesting logic - to put up with exploitation means it must be alright. Using the same logic Newbury market must be a commercial success for the traders, or they would not tuen up...

The market may be a 'classic case', but that is far from a reason to tar all such services with the same brush as it is wont for many to do on this forum.

[Andy Capp]

The market may be a 'classic case', but that is far for reason to tar all such service with the same brush as it wont for many to do on this form.

A bit too much Christmas cheer, or iPhone sodding you about?

[MontyPython]

The market may be a 'classic case', but that is far for reason to tar all such service with the same brush as it wont for many to do on this form.

No but but when you add (from both councils):

Giving away land at Parkway for a pound.
Prospective give away of parking revenue at Parkway and the Cinema
Reduction of Social housing at Parkway
Potential give away of land worth £ms at Market Street
Christmas Market free rental
Victoria Park water issues (still to be resolved)
I am sure others can add more..

then a picture of incompetence does start to emerge.

[dannyboy]

I was at a bash in honour of Mr O'Toole at the time. Now I'm in Venice.

[dannyboy]

No but but when you add (from both councils):

Giving away land at Parkway for a pound.
Prospective give away of parking revenue at Parkway and the Cinema
Reduction of Social housing at Parkway
Potential give away of land worth £ms at Market Street
Christmas Market free rental
Victoria Park water issues (still to be resolved)
I am sure others can add more..

then a picture of incompetence does start to emerge.

I think the counter argument would be that all of the above, no matter how they were handled, have garnered results. Which the majority of people endorse.

Without them Newbury would still be back as it was in the 1990s.

[Andy Capp]

I think the counter argument would be that all of the above, no matter how they were handled, have garnered results. Which the majority of people endorse.

Is that a fact?

Without them Newbury would still be back as it was in the 1990s.

And that is a bad thing?

[Andy Capp]

No but but when you add (from both councils):

Giving away land at Parkway for a pound.
Prospective give away of parking revenue at Parkway and the Cinema
Reduction of Social housing at Parkway
Potential give away of land worth £ms at Market Street
Christmas Market free rental
Victoria Park water issues (still to be resolved)
I am sure others can add more..

Like £2,000,000.00 spent resurfacing the roads in the town centre (bear-in-mind it had not long been resurfaced in places already), when the rest of the district's roads were 'crumbling'.

And doing away with a popular market place car park and taxi rank.

[dannyboy]

Is that a fact?


And that is a bad thing?

I have no idea, but apart from the grumbles on this forum I have not heard much negativity about the way in which Newbury has changed.

I mentioned to some friends as we stood at the Xmas market that the council had let the promoters off the ground rent. They all thought that that was a good idea, despite my reasoning that it was effectively subsidsing a commerical event & they our council tax was funding it. They looked at their beers & mulled wine & really didn't know what the fuss was about.

[dannyboy]

Like £2,000,000.00 spent resurfacing the roads in the town centre (bear-in-mind it had nopt long been resurfaced in places already), when the rest of the district's roads were 'crumbling'.

And doing away with a popular market place car park and taxi rank.

From what I have seen that hasn't changed at all.....

[On the edge]

I have no idea, but apart from the grumbles on this forum I have not heard much negativity about the way in which Newbury has changed.

I mentioned to some friends as we stood at the Xmas market that the council had let the promoters off the ground rent. They all thought that that was a good idea, despite my reasoning that it was effectively subsidsing a commerical event & they our council tax was funding it. They looked at their beers & mulled wine & really didn't know what the fuss was about.

I have a couple of mates who live in East Germany who still regret the wall was ever taken down!

Or there is the ex lollipop lady I've just been joshing. She is resigned to the cuts and even sees painful measures are sometimes necessary. After she'd been round the fair, I explained some were immune from such pain. I won't copy her response on this family forum!