CoronaVirus, Nature will find a way Options

[je suis Charlie]

Exactly my point. I looked after my elderly Mum for years at home. No way she was going into one of those homes. When she was admitted it was into a rainbow room and she lasted 4 weeks. It pisses me off when these liberal types get all high and mighty about care homes when most of them would put there mothers in a home ar a drop of a hat. I gave up years of my life...as she had spent many years doing the same for me.. I wonder if Newres did or would?

Thankfully mine are just tipping in their eighties, both are living with ailments but we are determined to let them stay in their own home. We now have a network of carers, cleaners, family etc who drop by on them. Long may that last.

[TallDarkAndHands...]

Thankfully mine are just tipping in their eighties, both are living with ailments but we are determined to let them stay in their own home. We now have a network of carers, cleaners, family etc who drop by on them. Long may that last.

👍

[newres]

The current estimate of deaths is 45,000 in the UK. The question I’ve heard asked is how many of those 45,000 were ventilated? If they weren’t, why not? We’re told that that is the treatment for COVID 19. The question really is, are we not running out of ventilators because a decision has been taken not to use them on a certain demographic. Also, if a good result would be less than 20,000 dead, how do we classify the current position?

Also, the government has always said its following the science. Yet our science has always been at odds with everyone else’s science. Now that we know who’s on SAGE, doors that explain it?

[Mr Brown]

The current estimate of deaths is 45,000 in the UK. The question I’ve heard asked is how many of those 45,000 were ventilated? If they weren’t, why not? We’re told that that is the treatment for COVID 19. The question really is, are we not running out of ventilators because a decision has been taken not to use them on a certain demographic. Also, if a good result would be less than 20,000 dead, how do we classify the current position?

Also, the government has always said its following the science. Yet our science has always been at odds with everyone else’s science. Now that we know who’s on SAGE, doors that explain it?

With my little medical knowledge, ventilation requires the patient to be sedated, this adds to the medical risk. Putting patients onto ventilation is a medical decision and will remain so. This virus is very new and behaving in ways not previously seen. Medical science is not the same as mechanical engineering; one process does not fit all.

20,000 fatalities would have been a good, indeed remarkable outcome, what we are seeing is bad. Casualty figures are notoriously difficult to predict as history shows us. The WW2 calculated attrition rate for D.Day was exceeded massively, but that didn't mean it was wrong in anyway - just a method of checking progress.

Frankly 'our' science, is not at odds with anyone else's. Science is not an exact art - we and 'they' simply don't know the answer, let alone the paths to follow when trying to determine the way forward. I must admit, from my view point, we are actually closely following the distilled learning and knowledge of our world leading medical experts for once and taking above politics decisions as a result.

I'm not surprised that Cummings is attending various high level committees, he is one of the high level advisors, so it would be exceptionally stupid to leave him out of the emerging cascade of grounded information.

These questions certainly do reveal a big issue confronting us, for which we also don't have a cure. That is, the demonstrable lack of intelligence in our mainstream reporters and sadly of many politicians. Thinking doesn't seem to play a part in their skill sets; which even when we are through this pandemic, bodes ill for the future.

[SirWilliam]

With my little medical knowledge, ventilation requires the patient to be sedated, this adds to the medical risk. Putting patients onto ventilation is a medical decision and will remain so. This virus is very new and behaving in ways not previously seen. Medical science is not the same as mechanical engineering; one process does not fit all.

20,000 fatalities would have been a good, indeed remarkable outcome, what we are seeing is bad. Casualty figures are notoriously difficult to predict as history shows us. The WW2 calculated attrition rate for D.Day was exceeded massively, but that didn't mean it was wrong in anyway - just a method of checking progress.

Frankly 'our' science, is not at odds with anyone else's. Science is not an exact art - we and 'they' simply don't know the answer, let alone the paths to follow when trying to determine the way forward. I must admit, from my view point, we are actually closely following the distilled learning and knowledge of our world leading medical experts for once and taking above politics decisions as a result.

I'm not surprised that Cummings is attending various high level committees, he is one of the high level advisors, so it would be exceptionally stupid to leave him out of the emerging cascade of grounded information.

These questions certainly do reveal a big issue confronting us, for which we also don't have a cure. That is, the demonstrable lack of intelligence in our mainstream reporters and sadly of many politicians. Thinking doesn't seem to play a part in their skill sets; which even when we are through this pandemic, bodes ill for the future.

The two "prolific" parties,(press and politicians), seem to delight in slogging it out like some gladiatorial spectacle for the masses in the forlorn hope that those putting a scientific mind to the problem will present the solution tomorrow morning so everyone can return to normality while slapping each other on the back in smug satisfaction.
I have long been critical of the singular lack of planning for such an event only to learn yesterday evening, (Panorama), that this question was covered 4 years ago under something called "Operation Sickness" and it seems sweet FA was done about it. I am not entirely sure which annoys me the most; not planning for it or planing and ignoring the findings? Little doubt, unless a 5 legged bunny is pulled out of Boris's hat, his tenure behind the door with the wonky number is going to be pretty short but what the heck will replace him.

[Mr Brown]

The two "prolific" parties,(press and politicians), seem to delight in slogging it out like some gladiatorial spectacle for the masses in the forlorn hope that those putting a scientific mind to the problem will present the solution tomorrow morning so everyone can return to normality while slapping each other on the back in smug satisfaction.
I have long been critical of the singular lack of planning for such an event only to learn yesterday evening, (Panorama), that this question was covered 4 years ago under something called "Operation Sickness" and it seems sweet FA was done about it. I am not entirely sure which annoys me the most; not planning for it or planing and ignoring the findings? Little doubt, unless a 5 legged bunny is pulled out of Boris's hat, his tenure behind the door with the wonky number is going to be pretty short but what the heck will replace him.

Exactly so, these are the real questions. Much of the failure to maintain safety nets and properly manage contingency can, as you say, be properly laid at the door of government. Of all pursusisons, Labour, in the Blair and Brown year were as bad, and the yellow brigade can be judged by their deeds in local government. Sadly, the furnace of populism was stoked to white heat by the media circus where the reporters made themselves the news. Your conclusion is spot on; there isn't anyone remotely able to replace Boris Johnson, so the master stroke of doing what our experts are telling him, might just buy us and ironically him, more time. However, how to bring the change in governance? Unless we get those that believe 'their solution' is the only way forward and it's right to keep fighting lost wars, we are going nowhere and neither is Boris!

[Mr Brown]

Strikes me we could quickly ask some of the U.K. textile firms to start producing mass quantities here on the gaurentee that when the dust settles, we won't tender outside UK for strategic / mission critical stuff. Just like nation producing our passport covers does!

[newres]

Strikes me we could quickly ask some of the U.K. textile firms to start producing mass quantities here on the gaurentee that when the dust settles, we won't tender outside UK for strategic / mission critical stuff. Just like nation producing our passport covers does!

As I understand it UK companies are offering PPE but getting no response from the government so sending it abroad instead.

It’s reminiscent of the government saying they are working with the supermarkets on food supply yet the supermarkets saying they’d not heard from the government and the government reporting a lack of chemicals for testing and the chemical producers saying we’ve got loads!

[Mr Brown]

As I understand it UK companies are offering PPE but getting no response from the government so sending it abroad instead.

It’s reminiscent of the government saying they are working with the supermarkets on food supply yet the supermarkets saying they’d not heard from the government and the government reporting a lack of chemicals for testing and the chemical producers saying we’ve got loads!

Are you surprised?

It is going to take a long time to blow out the sludge in the Civil Service. Presently its peopled by those who 'know best' and 'look after our interests' and under the previous regimes answered to the EU. Delivery of government is the province of the Civil Service - so firms offering help will rightly be dealt with by public servants. Sure, right now we simply cannot afford this bad behaviour, but even Cabinet Ministers are hard pressed to use traditional last chance approaches to put things right, as the Home Secretary has discovered in her acknowledged dysfunctional department. You simply can't be nice about applying size 11s.

[TallDarkAndHands...]

Are you surprised?

It is going to take a long time to blow out the sludge in the Civil Service. Presently its peopled by those who 'know best' and 'look after our interests' and under the previous regimes answered to the EU. Delivery of government is the province of the Civil Service - so firms offering help will rightly be dealt with by public servants. Sure, right now we simply cannot afford this bad behaviour, but even Cabinet Ministers are hard pressed to use traditional last chance approaches to put things right, as the Home Secretary has discovered in her acknowledged dysfunctional department. You simply can't be nice about applying size 11s.

Newres would have it sorted in a jiffy. He's a demigod.

[newres]

Newres would have it sorted in a jiffy. He's a demigod.

 covid_deaths.jpg ( 59.96K ) Number of downloads: 5

This has been a cluster****.

[TallDarkAndHands...]

 covid_deaths.jpg ( 59.96K ) Number of downloads: 5

This has been a cluster****.

No Italy, Belgium, Spain your graph? I wonder why?

[newres]

No Italy, Belgium, Spain your graph? I wonder why?

No Germany either. But we should have seen Italy and reacted properly. No herd immunity, no Cheltenham and lockdown 2 weeks earlier with test, track and trace. Eventually this will all come out. 40,000 plus dead so far.

[TallDarkAndHands...]

No Germany either. But we should have seen Italy and reacted properly. No herd immunity, no Cheltenham and lockdown 2 weeks earlier with test, track and trace. Eventually this will all come out. 40,000 plus dead so far.

My point is if you are going to put graphs up at least show all countries rather than ones that make the UK look specifically bad. You don't do yourself any favours...

[newres]

My point is if you are going to put graphs up at least show all countries rather than ones that make the UK look specifically bad. You don't do yourself any favours...

Put up one that makes the UK specifically look good then.

[TallDarkAndHands...]

Put up one that makes the UK specifically look good then.

Just use a data set that is complete. You can use this to drill into real data rather than cherry picked.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covid-de...BEL+ITA+ESP+GBR

Dont throw out #fbpe loon inspired graphs..

[Mr Brown]

No Germany either. But we should have seen Italy and reacted properly. No herd immunity, no Cheltenham and lockdown 2 weeks earlier with test, track and trace. Eventually this will all come out. 40,000 plus dead so far.

So, so, easy isn't it, all you need is a degree in hindsight.

No one without this priceless asset knew how this very new and very peculiar virus presented. 'Herd' immunity is simply a vogue term to explain what most medical people believed at the time, that just like other similar (similar) viruses, a community would be I e immune. We now know that wasn't the case.

Locking down against the 'media evidence' current at the time certainly didn't have mass public support and without a Military style enforcement, woukdn't have happened.

The WHO preached test, test, test. your news bending skills have modified that. However, as we now know, that was disenjenous anyway, because the test resource was short world wide and worse, even in Germany, unreliable.

I do agree with your implication that the North Korean model seems the most effective.

[TallDarkAndHands...]

So, so, easy isn't it, all you need is a degree in hindsight.

No one without this priceless asset knew how this very new and very peculiar virus presented. 'Herd' immunity is simply a vogue term to explain what most medical people believed at the time, that just like other similar (similar) viruses, a community would be I e immune. We now know that wasn't the case.

Locking down against the 'media evidence' current at the time certainly didn't have mass public support and without a Military style enforcement, woukdn't have happened.

The WHO preached test, test, test. your news bending skills have modified that. However, as we now know, that was disenjenous anyway, because the test resource was short world wide and worse, even in Germany, unreliable.

I do agree with your implication that the North Korean model seems the most effective.

"North Korean Model"... 🤣🤣👍👍

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mirror.co....ng-21488373.amp

I suppose if you shoot everyone who has it then it stops the spread and saves the North Korean NHS....

[newres]

So, so, easy isn't it, all you need is a degree in hindsight.

No one without this priceless asset knew how this very new and very peculiar virus presented. 'Herd' immunity is simply a vogue term to explain what most medical people believed at the time, that just like other similar (similar) viruses, a community would be I e immune. We now know that wasn't the case.

Locking down against the 'media evidence' current at the time certainly didn't have mass public support and without a Military style enforcement, woukdn't have happened.

The WHO preached test, test, test. your news bending skills have modified that. However, as we now know, that was disenjenous anyway, because the test resource was short world wide and worse, even in Germany, unreliable.

I do agree with your implication that the North Korean model seems the most effective.

Hindsight Wasn’t needed.
https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-...ie-f4d3d9cd99ca

https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-c...-herd-immunity/

Read what Richard Horton was saying.

Even Farage was screaming about those returning from skiing with no checks or quarantine.

The scale of death was knowable and preventable. We were on the same trajectory as Italy and the government failed to act.

[newres]

I’m listening to Farage as I type. He is highly critical of the government over this. I agree with much of what he has to say on it. We have the worst death rate in Europe yet you folks think we’ve done well. What would doing badly entail?