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Posted by: Andy Capp Jan 18 2014, 01:43 PM

It would seem while not having to display a tax disk might be handy, the government are salivating at a prospect of an estimated £58,000,000.00 windfall tax next year, as your tax will not carry to the new owner!

http://www.adventurebikerider.com/news/1002-vehicle-tax-will-no-longer-be-transferable-between-owners.html

Posted by: Strafin Jan 18 2014, 01:46 PM

How would that generate so much extra tax? Is that an estimate just based on overlapping costs? Seems a lot, but I agree it's a pain. VED should be abolished anyway.

Posted by: Andy Capp Jan 18 2014, 03:33 PM

Just a rough cut guess.

About 7 million used vehicles get sold every year. If the average vehicle has half a month’s VED remaining, that equates to 3.5 million extra months of VED per year (291,666 years’ worth) down the drain (you can only claim back full months). If the average annual VED cost per vehicle is £200, that works out to about £58,333,200 every year, assuming the car is re-taxed and the original owner buys an taxes another car in the same month, so it's rather tenuous really.

Posted by: Biker1 Jan 19 2014, 09:52 AM

Currently, if you sell a vehicle, you can take off the tax disc and send it back to DVLA for refund (on the remaining complete months).
The new owner can then re-tax.
Can this principle not be used with the new system?

Posted by: MontyPython Jan 19 2014, 10:09 AM

That is what will happen.

What Andy was highlighting is that you can not leave the tax disc with the vehicle. As there is no refund for part months you will then have the situation that the sale of a car from me to you today, will require us both to have paid VED for the month of January.

Posted by: Exhausted Jan 19 2014, 12:21 PM

I'm not sure that there is much difference with the current system other than perhaps you could sell the remaining tax to the new owner but if I returned the disc for a refund on 3rd January, I would get a refund for Feb, Mar and so on and the new owner would have to purchase tax for January which I have already paid and is forfeit.

Posted by: user23 Jan 19 2014, 03:59 PM

Seems like quite an over estimation.

Posted by: Andy Capp Jan 19 2014, 05:19 PM

Have you read and understood the OP?


Perhaps you could articulate why?

Posted by: NWNREADER Jan 19 2014, 06:16 PM

The Government is being quite slick, as they should increase income as well as save on expenditure. No cost of paper, printing, posting etc, and all those cars that still have tax on the car when they sell it - especially privately - will be void. Up until now the VED has applied to the car, now it will apply to the car and keeper. Will catch out many, especially when Dad gifts his car to son/daughter......

Posted by: motormad Jan 19 2014, 11:47 PM

Problem is, who buys a car without tax these days... I certainly won't, if someone is cheap enough to claim back £50 then I think about how they have skimped elsewhere.

Stupid government idea... yet again...

Posted by: Biker1 Jan 20 2014, 09:56 AM

Well, possibly you will.
As the OP says "your tax will not carry to the new owner"!

Posted by: Claude Jan 20 2014, 10:07 AM

How to transport a used car having just bought it is what concerns me most. I'm intrigued to see how the scheme addresses this issue.

Posted by: JeffG Jan 20 2014, 10:51 AM

More importantly, you'd have to have arranged insurance beforehand, unless you have existing insurance and it covers driving any vehicle.

Posted by: MontyPython Jan 20 2014, 12:34 PM

You have to do that currently - so that won't be affected by this change!

Posted by: Claude Jan 20 2014, 02:16 PM

As said, this scheme has absolutely no impact on being insured when you buy a used car, it's not changing anything which does or doesn't happen today from that perspective.

For info you can get short-term car insurance, which I've used in the past for test-driving vehicles I have and haven't ended up purchasing.

Anyway, most 'standard' comprehensive policies allow you to drive other vehicles (providing you have the owner's permission) but you're only covered on a third party basis, I think. For me that rules out driving any car worth over £500.

Posted by: Strafin Jan 20 2014, 06:45 PM

Presumably some sort of online instant cover, but to be honest in the unlikely event of you getting pulled, the database would still show the car as being taxed, because the paperwork wouldn't have been completed at the DVLA that quickly.

Posted by: Claude Jan 21 2014, 09:00 AM

In the unlikely event that you get pulled you won't have a tax disc displayed because the previous owner will have been obliged to keep it.

If I buy a car in deepest, darkest Cornwall there is little phone signal let alone enough to allow me to get internet connection on my phone, so I still await how one gets around the 'getting it home' issue. My guess is there'll be a grace period of 7 days to get it sorted... Time will tell.

Posted by: Biker1 Jan 21 2014, 09:18 AM

It is currently possible for any individual to report what they think may be an untaxed vehicle to DVLA.
With this new system this will not be possible as there is no identifying mark.
Is this desirable?
(Probably, to those who choose not to pay it! )
Maybe it is time to be even more radical and scrap VED altogether?

Posted by: dannyboy Jan 21 2014, 09:52 AM

ANPR will be everywhere......

Posted by: Biker1 Jan 21 2014, 11:55 AM

Will it?
Are you sure?
What, more than it is now?

Posted by: dannyboy Jan 21 2014, 12:01 PM

just a hunch.

There cannot be that many cars caught with out of date / incorrect tax discs by visual inspection these days.

The cost of the paper tax disc must be greater than the benefit they provide.

Wheras ANPR is cheap & effective.




one knock on will be yet another nail in the coffin of the post office

Posted by: MontyPython Jan 21 2014, 12:11 PM

No change to the Post Office really as you can renew on line anyway!

Posted by: Claude Jan 21 2014, 03:46 PM

Won't there be an online database covering all cars with/without tax, MOT & insurance? Thereby they can just send out reminder letters/fines to the owners address.

I guess the problem comes when people don't complete and return the V5C new ownership form.

Posted by: Biker1 Jan 21 2014, 05:53 PM

If so how come there are still an estimatedhttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/consumertips/jessicainvestigates/10146140/How-many-uninsured-drivers-are-on-the-road.html?

Posted by: Strafin Jan 21 2014, 07:07 PM

Nobody will have discs displayed that is the point! Perhaps there will be a grace period between the change of ownership and paying the tax, after all if you pay your tax mid month, it gets backdated anyway.

Posted by: Strafin Jan 21 2014, 07:10 PM

I don't think it's undesirable, would anybody report what they might think is an untaxed car anyway? I certainly wouldn't, I don't see a need to display a tax disc, I don't wear a badge to confirm I've payed my national insurance! I think it should be abolished though, there is no need for it, it's just a tax for no reason.

Posted by: Andy Capp Jan 21 2014, 09:03 PM

Thus making the government more filthy lucre off the beleaguered motorist!

Posted by: Simon Kirby Jan 21 2014, 09:26 PM

I agree. I would imagine that the tax costs more to administer than it generates in revenue.

Posted by: motormad Jan 22 2014, 11:59 AM

It costs like £280 to tax mine for a year, bit of paper and the administration costs like £5!

Posted by: Exhausted Jan 22 2014, 07:01 PM

The piece of paper in the windscreen really is redundant. There are automatic fines sent out by DVLA for cars which are on the road or stored unless they are taxed or SORN'd so they know without seeing the bit of paper. I think the offence of failing to display is still in place though. There have been a few local cars clamped recently by either DVLA or VoSA for not having tax or SORN and not released until a fine and back road tax has been paid. So, there are controls in place. There is a variation in this if the vehicle has been transferred to a motor trader or registered scrapper who retains the reg doc, they can hold that vehicle untaxed or without a SORN until sold or broken up. Where things go a bit nails up is that there is no automatic DVLA connection to the insurance database so whilst they know a vehicle is taxed or not as the case may be they have no idea if it has current insurance. In fact, if it is taxed then the vehicle does not need insurance if does not go onto public land.
In theory, an untaxed car is allowed on the highway if operated on trade plates or is driving to and from a booked MoT test. It does need insurance though.

Posted by: MontyPython Jan 22 2014, 07:55 PM

How is it that your vehicle is checked for MoT and insurance when you renew your tax online? is it just a one off query to confirm that insurance is in place?

Posted by: Exhausted Jan 23 2014, 08:35 PM

Excise duty data held by DVLA, Insurance by the Insurance database. Mot held by Vosa.
The three sets of data are not held as a single database I'm pretty sure but there must be a relationship or the ANPR would not work nor the online taxing.

Posted by: MontyPython Jan 23 2014, 08:41 PM

My point was they must have a way of querying the insurance database when they need it.

Posted by: On the edge Jan 23 2014, 10:21 PM

Indeed they do! The Motor Insurance Bureau operate the Motor Insurance Database -which is actively used by the Police and DVLC. Check it out by not renewing your insurance and trying to tax your car via on line service!

These days you don't need all the data in one database, just some good search engines and a bit of compatibility. Bringing the DVLC record, putting MOTs on line and linking with a newly created Insurance database so that not only the Police could search by just typing the registration no, but us punters could renew on line or by auto phone was a very successful Government project! One they are rightly proud of.

Posted by: Exhausted Jan 24 2014, 05:00 PM

One scam that was knocked on the head by the computerisation of the MoT test was clocking. The new document provided when you get your pass ticket shows previous test mileages so it is simple to check that there are no anomilies.

Posted by: motormad Jan 24 2014, 07:56 PM

To a point.. you can still clock the car, if you do 20 k between MOTs but only register 8k....

Posted by: x2lls Jan 25 2014, 01:38 AM

How?

Posted by: MontyPython Jan 25 2014, 12:27 PM

Drive 20000 miles the adjust the odometer back 12000 miles before you take it for the MOT!

Posted by: Exhausted Jan 25 2014, 12:35 PM

That's not clocking in the true meaning of the word. Clocking means winding back the speedo. In the old days, unscrupulous vendors would remove the speedo and turn back the number rollers. To-day, the display is digital. It could be done through the ECU with a dealer reader but normally, even if a new ECU is fitted, the dealer will reset the speedo to the original mileage.
However it's done, it will now be recorded on the DVLA system, that is why it is important to check what the tester has input as there is a time limit on getting it rectified.
What you are suggesting is disconnecting your speedo. That is not so simple on most modern cars as the speedo pick up is normally electronic via the ECU. Mine comes from the ABS system for instance.

Posted by: x2lls Jan 25 2014, 02:08 PM

Thank you, I did wonder!

Posted by: MontyPython Jan 25 2014, 05:15 PM

Buy the cable and Software online if you are that way inclined plug it into the ECU and you can adjust the mileage.

Not sure if it keeps a log anywhere of the adjustments but would be good enough for an MoT

Posted by: Exhausted Jan 25 2014, 09:05 PM

No check on Mot to see if the mileage has been fiddled but you still get a recording of this year to last year and previous. Might not match your service book though. You want to fiddle about with you car electronics with some bit of kit off ebay. I know I wouldn't and I doubt the odometer reset would work with many late model cars without a manufacturers rolling code.

Posted by: motormad Jan 25 2014, 10:54 PM

Unfortunately you should realise that nearly every single tool which is available to the dealer is available to the aftermarket.
Your mileage is registered with VOSA at your MOT, let's say it's done 100k at this point.
In your next 12 months till your next MOT you do 25,000 miles.... before it goes in for the MOT the owner of the vehicle sets the mileage to read 110,000 miles .

Say the owner keeps the car for 3 years before selling it on that's like 60k miles that have been unaccounted for and can be easily hidden in service history... after all, you don't need service history for mileage the car's not done...

I only really know VWs but you can change the displayed mileage on any Golf, Mk3,Mk4 and Mk5 up to 2007 in about 2 minutes. You use a tool called VagTacho (and VagCommander) which allow you to edit the miles displayed. It takes longer to plug the cable in than it does to actually make the change..

Where as the cars do store the mileage in the ECU some models do not allow you to read them (eg on my car I cannot read that section of the ECU). Mainly this is earlier generation (Mk4 and early Mk5) TDI engine cars..

You can change the mileage on up to 2012 models in the VW range that I am aware of. In a year we will be able to do 2013 model years as well.. it's just a case of programmers keeping up with the encryption methods.