Crime Tsunami? Options

[Guest_noobree_*]

General concensus is that local police are useless, lazy and spend most of their time dealing with pointless things (just opinion formed from posters comments). Thats like me coming to your office with no idea what it is you do and accusing you of being rubbish at your job. But, they deal with the things that are reported, what's pointless to one is not so pointless to the person if effects!!

That's only a general consensus amongst idiots, I'd suggest! I certainly don't feel that way. You do an incredibly difficult, and often dangerous, job and I'd be very surprised if most people - albeit the silent majority - are right behind you. Anonymous comments on whinge boards like this don't count, except yours and mine obviously. In my experience those who are first to complain are those who do the least to help. I appreciate that I've just complained, but I'm complaining about complainers so I think that's OK!

My original post was intended to ask whether we really have a problem and, in particular, whether crime levels in Newbury are really getting significantly worse.

[Anon]

The overall workings of the police are decided way higher up than the PC on the street, but he/she is always the one that gets the grief. Give them a break and direct your anger and frustration to the people that do have the power to change things.
[/quote]


I totally agree with you! I hear so many people moaning about the police and how they don't do this and don't do that. What about what they do, do for the us?!

People should really look a little closer at our society and the people who run it i.e the government (a what a bunch of robbing so and so's some of them have been proven to be!). It is our Government that has decided that community policing is best for our country, (which i short means the softly softly approach!) maybe we they should look at a more 'law enforcement' approach to policing. The criminal justice system in this country is historic and hasn't moved on with the evolution of society, so how do you expect our police officers to keep everyone happy when the whole system is fundamentally flawed?

Sorry I am rambling i will shut up now!!

[Andy]

My original post was intended to ask whether we really have a problem and, in particular, whether crime levels in Newbury are really getting significantly worse.

I come originally from SE London....trust me, this is heaven compaired to some areas there.

The thing about crime in modern times, I believe, is that is is much more readily available to find out about via the media, internet etc. Therefore we just hear, read and can find out about it much easy and so get the illusion that is is getting much worse. Which it probably is but nowhere near to the degree we imagine

[JeffG]

I saw a news item a couple of days ago about Manchester police's zero tolerance approach to burglary. It showed a house that had just been burgled and had a car stolen, and SOCOs were swarming all over the place.

I suppose it comes down to local funding budgets as to what is achievable with the resources available.

While I'm posting, I'd just like to add my "me too" to those who have said they have they have nothing but respect for the police on the ground and the tough job they do - but it's how the resources are managed that affects the public's perception.

[GMR]

I read that if the conservatives get into power the will make the chief of police accountable and electable by the people. If that is true then all the government will do is shift the blame from themselves to the police. The problem isn’t accountability or electability but the resources, the courts and laws to back up the police and they won’t get that by passing the buck. The only way the government can help is if it makes tough laws to back up the police. The other problem this country has got is the European Human Rights laws that on the whole support the criminal more than it does the victim.

[GMR]

The overall workings of the police are decided way higher up than the PC on the street, but he/she is always the one that gets the grief. Give them a break and direct your anger and frustration to the people that do have the power to change things.

And how do we do that? Are you going to give us the names of the police who are “higher up” the food chain and responsible? I doubt it. I’ve worked in also sorts of jobs; management, dealing directly with the public and supermarkets and when members of the public get annoyed with stupid rules/ systems/ policies of a certain company or organisation they always take it on the front line troops as they are easily accessible.

A few years ago people had problems with the trains and the rising prices and the public took out their anger and frustrations at the porters who worked there. In America the police got fed up with being abused by the public for incompetence from higher up the food chain and went on strike; it worked (at least for awhile). The police can’t go on strike in this country, however, if you made a gesture of sympathy and support by resigning en masse – which will cause mass unrest and anarchy - the lunatics up the top might actually take notice and do something. The problem with that idea is that you’d be too busy protecting your own interests therefore such gestures will never happen. We have seen in the past that people’s uprising in this country has and can work; the poll tax for instance. People protested, Thatcher went along with the pole tax. Until somebody makes such a gesture then the front line troops will always suffer for the bureaucracy and stupidity of the morons from above.

[anon123]

GMR I don't need to give you those names it's all widely available in the public domain.

[Roost]

As anon says, those names are in the public domain, but try and get hold of these people to speak to....! I'll bet you'll get the response "They're not available at the moment, can I take a message and get them to call you back.....!" Several days, nay months pass and still nothing is heard.
I know several police persons and they alss express disquiet about the job, its priorities and the 'supervision' of the 'superiors'. I think that the police do get a rough ride and get blamed for a lot of things that aren't necessarily their fault (sentencing, courts / prisons releasing perps etc) and sometimes they deserve a break.
Another thing, there was an earlier post about suggesting that an officer stop a lowlife who was on his bike drinking alcohol. Is this a high priority for you? For most this would be minor and the investigation of burglaries may take a higher priority.....

[GMR]

GMR I don't need to give you those names it's all widely available in the public domain.

Yes they are but they are not easily approachable. The only options normal citizens have is either write - which will be ignored - or act in unison; ie go for the easier targets.

You also know their names and whereabouts; have you and your colleagues shown your disgust at the way you’ve been treated because of THEIR policies/ rules and took your frustrations out at them? If not why not? Or are you happy with the status quo? People prefer easy options and that will always be the front-line troops.

People wrote to Thatcher and their local MP’s in their thousand over the pole tax; nothing. People went out in the streets and protested; including attacking the police and, as I said before, Thatcher and the pole tax went. If you want the abuse to stop either the government changes its policies or either you act or the citizens of this country; and that usually means taking it out on you and your colleagues. I am not saying I agree with that approach, but that is the only options available to the ordinary citizens of this country.

[Iommi]

When the police protested about their reneged pay deal, I think that was only fair because the Government had betrayed them (and themselves) - The amount was not even peanuts compared to the amount the financial institutions received recently. The issue I see is that the senior ranks are thinking more about their pension than about delivering to their rank and file.

I think it is important for the Police 'Service' to remain disciplined and to see them rioting would be counter productive. The wage protests yielded nothing either. This is all under the assumption that the rank and file are 'disgusted' of course.

I don't think the Poll Tax was defeated by riots - It was just a bad piece of legislation that wasn't workable. Civil disobedience in the form of non payments, rather than riots, did more harm to the policy I feel.

As for a crime tsunami in Newbury - I don't see it, but that will be poor consolation to people that do suffer from being a victim of crime. I know a number of people that have moved to this area, in part, because of the relative low crime rate, in particular low level crime.

[GMR]

When the police protested about their reneged pay deal, I think that was only fair because the Government had betrayed them (and themselves) - The amount was not even peanuts compared to the amount the financial institutions received recently. The issue I see is that the senior ranks are thinking more about their pension than about delivering to their rank and file.

It is not only the police the government betrayed. They came into power saying they will get tough on crime and the causes of crime and since they’ve been in power crime has gone up.

I think it is important for the Police 'Service' to remain disciplined and to see them rioting would be counter productive. The wage protests yielded nothing either. This is all under the assumption that the rank and file are 'disgusted' of course.

Nobody is suggesting that they riot, just stand up and be counted because they are unhappy with the decisions from above; including too much paper work and red tape.

I don't think the Poll Tax was defeated by riots - It was just a bad piece of legislation that wasn't workable. Civil disobedience in the form of non payments, rather than riots, did more harm to the policy I feel.

They weren’t defeated by “riots” alone; large groups of people protesting up and down the country and of course what you said; “non payment” of the poll tax contributed to it being ditched.

As for a crime tsunami in Newbury - I don't see it, but that will be poor consolation to people that do suffer from being a victim of crime. I know a number of people that have moved to this area, in part, because of the relative low crime rate, in particular low level crime.

I wouldn’t use the word “tsunami” but I have seen crime go up in Newbury and I’ve also seen fewer and fewer people ringing the police to report the crime; how do I know this. One it has been reported nationally. But also the police and people I’ve spoken to.

[Iommi]

It is not only the police the government betrayed. They came into power saying they will get tough on crime and the causes of crime and since they’ve been in power crime has gone up.

Not according to the BCS

"HOW HAVE LEVELS OF CRIME CHANGED OVER THE LONGER TERM?

Long-term trends show that BCS crime rose steadily from 1981 through to the early 1990s, peaking in 1995. Crime then fell, making 1995 a significant turning point. The fall was substantial until 2004/05, when BCS crime levels stabilised until the further decline this year. BCS crime is now at the lowest ever level since the first results in 1981. Trends in BCS violence, vehicle related theft and burglary broadly reflect the trend in all BCS crime."

Source: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs08/hosb0708summ.pdf

Whether this reflects crime in Newbury, I don't know.

Nobody is suggesting that they riot, just stand up and be counted because they are unhappy with the decisions from above; including too much paper work and red tape.

All services complain of this and often the reason for the red tape is born out of things that have happened in the past that necessitate it. The paper work can be mitigated by updating the methods by which they record crime. Red tape can be necessary because clever lawyers can otherwise engineer acquittals. Indeed, in the past, people have complained about victimisation, so the red tape is designed to mitigate that.

They weren’t defeated by “riots” alone; large groups of people protesting up and down the country and of course what you said; “non payment” of the poll tax contributed to it being ditched.

Agreed, but I suspect you might overestimate how much power the rank and file have to make many protestations. A bit like in the army, members don't like to be seen winging. Very much like the old saying, 'If you can't take a joke, then you shouldn't have signed on'.

This might be a good reason to watch the Police Conference this year, if it hasn't already happened. It would be interesting to see what it is they feel they lack that would be practical to provide.

I wouldn’t use the word “tsunami” but I have seen crime go up in Newbury and I’ve also seen fewer and fewer people ringing the police to report the crime; how do I know this. One it has been reported nationally. But also the police and people I’ve spoken to.

I have seen news reports that suggest that people not reporting certain types of crime as a theory, but I'm not sure it is fact that fewer people report it every year. I do know though that people are reluctant to report crime for a number of reasons. One thing I don't like is that when one phones the police, you get put through to a call centre not in Newbury.

What is quite unnerving is how few police there can be in Newbury some times, but on another note, perhaps the paucity of Police in Newbury is a tribute to how peaceful it is most of the time, so when something does happen, it comes as a shock.

[GMR]

Iommi,

you make some good points which could go either way.

Concerning call centres; I agree. At one time calls used to go straight through to Newbury, but not any more.

[Iommi]

Iommi, you make some good points which could go either way.

I'm not sure I like the sound of that!

Let's just assume I'm right and we are a low crime area, that is no reason of course to pack our bags and go home. We should remain vigilant and also realise, whilst crime generally might be low, there will be people in the same area that are suffering immeasurably.

[GMR]

I'm not sure I like the sound of that!

Let's just assume I'm right and we are a low crime area, that is no reason of course to pack our bags and go home. We should remain vigilant and also realise, whilst crime generally might be low, there will be people in the same area that are suffering immeasurably.

I can't argue with that. I am sure there are many parts of Newbury that is ok; I can only speak personally and going by talking to other people.

[Darren]

Concerning call centres; I agree. At one time calls used to go straight through to Newbury, but not any more.

There hasn't been a control room in Newbury since about 1992, when it was closed and all calls (except direct dial to extensions) when to the switchboards and 999 to the Wantage Control Room.

The question has to be asked, why do people report crimes? Is it because they want the offender caught, prosecuted and sentenced? Not really. it's because without that little reference number, they cannot report it to their insurance company and make a claim.

A classic example of this was someone who reported the theft of their wedding ring. The thieves ignored all the other jewellery, cash and valuables and took just the ring. A bit of questioning revealed they hadn't had it stolen at all, but had lost it at home. They then wanted it reported as lost, given a reference so they could make a claim. This was refused as it was lost at home and there was no chance of anyone else finding it and handing it in.

The police are not a reporting service for insurance companies.

One of biggest problems is that the police are the only 24/7/365 contact for all other public services.

House been burgled? Call the police
stolen car? Call the police
lost my cat? Call the police
noisy party you weren't invited to ? Call the police
pothole in road. call police and demand it's filled in
car parked on road with VEL that expired yesterday? Dial 999 and ask for police
etc
etc
etc.

Police officers get fed up with being used as social workers for all of society's ills instead of being able to get on with catching criminals.

Also, everyone wants a police force who operate a 'zero tolerance' policy on crime. Until it impacts them of course.

In this country (despite what some think) we have 'policing by consent' and as population we can withdraw that consent. We don't because even anarchists don't want to live in anarchy as there is always an anarchist bigger than you.

[Iommi]

One of biggest problems is that the police are the only 24/7/365 contact for all other public services.

999 is the number for all the emergency services, Ambulance, Fire Rescue, Police, etc... Your point Darren, is a worthy one, albeit irrelevant in this discussion.

[GMR]

999 is the number for the emergency services, Ambulance, Fire Rescue, Police, etc... Your point Darren, is a worthy one, albeit irrelevant in this discussion.

That made me laugh

[Darren]

I said public service, not emergency services.

[Iommi]

I said public service, not emergency services.

It might be that people misuse 999, but provided it is not malicious I don't see the problem as such, but what it does suggest, is there is a need for a general citizens help line that people could be directed to. People will ask for the police because they seem the logical choice of the ones available.

Behind the examples of non emergency examples you cite, could lie a crime. I feel, however, the police should always be involved where the public's welfare or property is at risk.

House been burgled? Call the police (a legitimate call I think)

stolen car? Call the police (a legitimate call I think)

lost my cat? Call the police (not legit)

noisy party you weren't invited to ? Call the police (a legitimate call I think, should it become too rowdy)

pothole in road. call police and demand it's filled in (a legitimate call I think, if it is dangerous to road users)

car parked on road with VEL that expired yesterday? Dial 999 and ask for police (not legit)


While the above are not necessarily emergencies, it is more than likely that people dial 999 because it is a familiar number and can be dialled 24/7. Emergency is a subjective term and most people, I would imagine, feel their call is an emergency.


This is all, however, irrelevant in this thread.