Police Funding, Is spending £5m on a new training centre really best use of funds? Options

[On the edge]

We are in the middle of a serious economic crisis and as a consequence there are a large number of commercial properties ready to rent or buy at quite economic rates. Why then should we even contemplate spending some £5m on a refurbished (to be honest new) training centre in what is really green belt land? That TV Police are one of the few forces without a dedicated training centre doesn't really justify the spend! Arguably, that's also a reason for rationalising Police training nationally.

I'm also frankly amazed that the Force could have 'saved' big sums to do this from their budgets year on year - without anyone noticing. To me, this demonstrates a lack of scrutiny and worse, a lack of accountability. Just think, this cash could be used to restore some of the cuts in expenditure we are suffering elsewhere.

The suggestion that big sums could be saved by not renting accommodation is also somewhat spurious - because there are other alternatives - it does not need to be new build. Equally, would they really save money? after all rented provision is only paid for when used. A dedicated training centre would need to be resourced and managed on a permanent basis. Wonder what the real comparitor figures look like?

This isn't saying the Police shouldn't be trained; seems a big need if these threads are anything to go by! However, the answer isn't simply to throw money - lets see some imaginative leadership and solutions for once. Wouldn't it make a refreshing change if TVP actually gave up that budget - because they'd found a better way forward?

[Guest_jaycakes_*]

I think most policemen don't even know their own rules they are supposedly upholding so I'm all for spending cash on more training. The nimwits.

[Simon Kirby]

I don't have a problem with it OtE, I think the rationale is sound and we all benefit from the investment.

[Andy Capp]

It would seem that the expenditure will save £100,000.00 a year, but it will cost ~£5,000,000.00. It'll take a while to break even!

[NWNREADER]

It would seem that the expenditure will save £100,000.00 a year, but it will cost ~£5,000,000.00. It'll take a while to break even!

The vagaries of public sector budgeting and funding. It seems they have a #5.6m underspend which they can 'convert' into rolled on spends and maintain the balance until the build is complete, then accrue the #100k savings year on year. Thus they already have the #5m and will gain a further lump per year.
Years ago there used to be District Training Centres, funded by the Home Office and a slice from each force that used it. Then the HO stopped all the central funding and forces had to pick up the tab themselves. Looks like TVP may be moving towards providing a facility that neighbouring forces can share, charging them to use the facility. Maybe in a few years time the HO will suggest running these multi-force centres and call them something like a District Training Centre?

[On the edge]

I'm certainly not against the training or the need to have somewhere to do it. I suppose NWNReaders comment about the 'vagaries of public sector budgeting and funding' captures the issue. There are many other ways to do the job and in some cases more effectively - thinking you solve a problem with a shiny new building is a classic public sector response. So again a management and leadership issue - demonstrating dull and pedestrian. I suppose given who we voters choose to elect to oversee them - we shouldn't be surprised!

[John C]

 police.gif ( 116.98K ) Number of downloads: 17

Could this be the answer to cut costs

[Penelope]

 police.gif ( 116.98K ) Number of downloads: 17

Could this be the answer to cut costs

Rofl.

[Exhausted]

To my mind, the key to effective anything is training. It doesn't matter if it's a soldier in Afghanistan, a sailor on a submarine, an operative on a rubbish cart or a policeman on the beat or being a detective. In any skill job, the operative can only function to the level he or she has been trained.

I want trained policemen who know their job, know how to interact with the public and can walk the beat or are able to run their business as they progress through the ranks. What I don't really want are a load of half trained community support officers taking a major share of policing.

Whatever it costs, is what it costs if police forces have to resort to local training. To my mind, the preference should be a less parochial establishment which caters for all the police forces within the UK. Residential and intensive training where students work hard and meet, most impotantly, officers from other forces. My view is let the police get on with what they know they have to do as regards training. I don't hear anybody complaining about the cost of the training for the servicemen before they go to meet their adverseries or the cost of training hospital/medical staff.

What do we on here know and what expertise have we regarding training. A few noughts get put forward and we go into freefall.

Even Guest jaycakes seems to agree although I don't understand the last bit of the sentence.

"I think most policemen don't even know their own rules they are supposedly upholding so I'm all for spending cash on more training. The nimwits."

[On the edge]

To my mind, the key to effective anything is training. It doesn't matter if it's a soldier in Afghanistan, a sailor on a submarine, an operative on a rubbish cart or a policeman on the beat or being a detective. In any skill job, the operative can only function to the level he or she has been trained.

I want trained policemen who know their job, know how to interact with the public and can walk the beat or are able to run their business as they progress through the ranks. What I don't really want are a load of half trained community support officers taking a major share of policing.

Whatever it costs, is what it costs if police forces have to resort to local training. To my mind, the preference should be a less parochial establishment which caters for all the police forces within the UK. Residential and intensive training where students work hard and meet, most impotantly, officers from other forces. My view is let the police get on with what they know they have to do as regards training. I don't hear anybody complaining about the cost of the training for the servicemen before they go to meet their adverseries or the cost of training hospital/medical staff.

What do we on here know and what expertise have we regarding training. A few noughts get put forward and we go into freefall.

Even Guest jaycakes seems to agree although I don't understand the last bit of the sentence.

"I think most policemen don't even know their own rules they are supposedly upholding so I'm all for spending cash on more training. The nimwits."

Some of us have rather a lot of expertise in training. The key issue highlighted here is the cost of a brand new training centre. That's very different to the actual cost of delivering training. If high quality education and training demands brand new buildings - then by that standard Oxford University is rubbish!

If you do 'let the Police get on with what they know and have to do with regards to training' past performance, by your own last paragraph defeats the case!

Yes, spend the money, not on new buildings but on training. Training the trainers would be a good start clearly.

As to criticising other trades and professions; there is rather a lot of disquiet. Nurse training is seem as a big issue right now. As for the forces, wort remembering what Deepcut was all about. UK isn't good at training in any field - simply throwing money at new building isn't going to help.

[Darren]

My favourite reply to something like this...

If you think training is expensive, try ignorance.

[On the edge]

My favourite reply to something like this...

I quite agree - BUT this isn't an argument about the cost of training, its about the cost of new buildings. Given the state of UK education, not difficult to see why some don't appreciate the distinction.

[Darren]

But training is more than just the content, facilities are almost as important.

Anyone who has used the rooms at Sulhamstead, police or voluntary organisations, will know what the rooms are like. If the centre was inspected by OFSTED, chances are they would be in special measures.

[JeffG]

If the centre was inspected by OFSTED, chances are they would be in special measures.

I thought special measures were to do with a poor standard of teaching, not the state of the buildings.

[On the edge]

But training is more than just the content, facilities are almost as important.

Anyone who has used the rooms at Sulhamstead, police or voluntary organisations, will know what the rooms are like. If the centre was inspected by OFSTED, chances are they would be in special measures.

Then that's simply poor management by the house staff. Demonstrating that even if they did have a new facility, the money would be wasted because they wouldn't look after it.

If OFSTED did use buildings as a criteria, most of the public schools in UK would be in special measures too. Even round here, Against Trinity and St. Barts. - Park House which has quite dilapidated property does as well, if not better.

I have been in the rooms at Sulhampstead, several times for various seminars and events. Frankly not too bad for what it is.

[Simon Kirby]

To my mind, the key to effective anything is training. It doesn't matter if it's a soldier in Afghanistan, a sailor on a submarine, an operative on a rubbish cart or a policeman on the beat or being a detective. In any skill job, the operative can only function to the level he or she has been trained.

I want trained policemen who know their job, know how to interact with the public and can walk the beat or are able to run their business as they progress through the ranks. What I don't really want are a load of half trained community support officers taking a major share of policing.

Whatever it costs, is what it costs if police forces have to resort to local training. To my mind, the preference should be a less parochial establishment which caters for all the police forces within the UK. Residential and intensive training where students work hard and meet, most impotantly, officers from other forces. My view is let the police get on with what they know they have to do as regards training. I don't hear anybody complaining about the cost of the training for the servicemen before they go to meet their adverseries or the cost of training hospital/medical staff.

What do we on here know and what expertise have we regarding training. A few noughts get put forward and we go into freefall.

I agree.

[On the edge]

That's all very well, but Exhausted's post doesn't exactly make the case. Simply suggests no one here knows anything about training or has any expertise. He can't know that and is incorrect. The whole tenor of his argument suggests we should simply stump up and leave it to the experts.

In which case, we might as well close this forum, and the rest of the media - what indeed do we know?

That other posts suggest (in this and other threads) suggest that Policing is singularly lacking in this area does indicate there is clearly something amiss in the training area.

Similarly, there is a broadly unjustified attack on the introduction of PCSOs. What is really wrong with them? After all the self same Police 'experts' implemented that idea. Arguably, the demand for PCSOs might be an indicator that in some areas, base PCs had been over trained.

Again, I would stress, I am not against training, far from it. What I don't like is the habit of the public sector simply to throw money at a problem justified only against sentiment or cant.

[Exhausted]

Some of us have rather a lot of expertise in training. The key issue highlighted here is the cost of a brand new training centre. That's very different to the actual cost of delivering training. If high quality education and training demands brand new buildings - then by that standard Oxford University is rubbish!

If you do 'let the Police get on with what they know and have to do with regards to training' past performance, by your own last paragraph defeats the case!

Yes, spend the money, not on new buildings but on training. Training the trainers would be a good start clearly.

As to criticising other trades and professions; there is rather a lot of disquiet. Nurse training is seem as a big issue right now. As for the forces, wort remembering what Deepcut was all about. UK isn't good at training in any field - simply throwing money at new building isn't going to help.

That really is a load of tosh. Oxford is a purpose built set of buildings, designed for the very purpose of teaching and because of its stature, it gets the cream of the teaching world and the cream of the student pool. It has gathered expertise over the years because it is a close community, providing in one place all the facilities needed for the job they do.
The key here is that they, the TVP, have not got anywhere which is fit for purpose and which can provide a facility which caters for residential and intensive training. They could of course put up a wooden hut in the grounds but what would that do for the morale of what we know should be a highly motivated force.
I'm sure you have a lot of expertise in the field of training but if it runs to a few seminars in hotel rooms then you must understand that a bespoke training facility for a body that we rely on to keep us safe in our homes can only be good. Bear in mind that Oxford has been there for hundreds of years and the right police college, whilst it may not last until the next century, can be written down over fifty years. It's not so much money then is it.
Anyway, they've been saving their pennies and this is a good way to spend it.

[On the edge]

That really is a load of tosh. Oxford is a purpose built set of buildings, designed for the very purpose of teaching and because of its stature, it gets the cream of the teaching world and the cream of the student pool. It has gathered expertise over the years because it is a close community, providing in one place all the facilities needed for the job they do.
The key here is that they, the TVP, have not got anywhere which is fit for purpose and which can provide a facility which caters for residential and intensive training. They could of course put up a wooden hut in the grounds but what would that do for the morale of what we know should be a highly motivated force.
I'm sure you have a lot of expertise in the field of training but if it runs to a few seminars in hotel rooms then you must understand that a bespoke training facility for a body that we rely on to keep us safe in our homes can only be good. Bear in mind that Oxford has been there for hundreds of years and the right police college, whilst it may not last until the next century, can be written down over fifty years. It's not so much money then is it.
Anyway, they've been saving their pennies and this is a good way to spend it.

Really? Purpose built circa 12th C! Of course there are some new buildings, but here and in many other places, the age of the surroundings is a selling point.

I'm more than happy to provide advice and guidance to TVP - on the usual commercial basis. No, I don't just run a few seminars and have significant experience here and abroad. The most motivated people I've ever worked with were trained and then operated out of a semi dilapidated railway warehouse that had been put up in 1902. What made them so was (dare I say it) the quality of the management.

In most cases, when organisations create specialist residential training facilities, the need changes from the requirement for an individual to go on a course to the need to keep the training centre productive.

Equally, I'm not convinced that yet more construction on the Sulhampstead site is necessary even if it could be justified. For instance, there is a large, adequately sized building in Central Newbury owned by the enforcement services which is presently wholly under used. I'm sure this isn't the only example.

Frankly, I really wish that 'training' was the only cure to Police morale. The latest Police Federation conference made it pretty clear that the Force seem to have the same moral as TfL Tube Drivers. Being very blunt; its all been rather comfortable in admin terms. What we actually need is some real and inspirational leadership; you can't 'train' that. follows.

[Exhausted]

Frankly, I really wish that 'training' was the only cure to Police morale. The latest Police Federation conference made it pretty clear that the Force seem to have the same moral as TfL Tube Drivers. Being very blunt; its all been rather comfortable in admin terms. What we actually need is some real and inspirational leadership; you can't 'train' that. follows.

That may be true, but what should we do, just bumble along or should we strive to inspire. Personal training that is owned by the police force and run for the benefit of the force can only be the catalyst to a skilled, technical future.

A raiway shed or a grotty old building in Newbury, to me, does not cut the mustard. The trainees need to be away from the day to day, not have to worry about parking, although there is plenty of room in the Parkway and be able to have the space to carry out realistic excercises without interference from onlookers.

If you are as you say an experienced trainer then you must know that this is true.