End of the Big Society Options

[dannyboy]

And the practical difference is?


Why? Why should the council not look to 'off load' the management to save tax payers money? SK's argument for self management is not undermined by the apparent deference of the allotmenteers to confront the council.

In my view, your argument is intellectually incoherent.

Oh well in that case we can both shut up.

[Iommi]

Oh well in that case we can both shut up.

Why?

[dannyboy]

Why?

what is the point of prolonging a debate half of which is 'intellectuallty incoherent'

[Simon Kirby]

Calling an allotment an over subscribed luxury is not being critical of the idea. It is a statement of fact.

if Sk had managed to get even one fellow allotment holder to join his fight for self management I'd be more inclined to accept his arguments for SM. You can't assume that the lack of interest was solely due to apathy.
Therefore they must remain a tax payer funded luxury.

Do you support the suggestion that the Council should ballot the allotmenteers on self-management, adding this to the bottom of the bill?

Would you like a meeting to discuss self-management Yes or No?

[Iommi]

what is the point of prolonging a debate half of which is 'intellectuallty incoherent'

I'm not sure my contribution is though.

[Simon Kirby]

I can see this is getting a little hung up on the self-management thing. I want to post a question I asked at the Community Services Committee almost three years ago. There's no possible criticism of power-grabs and dictatorships, all I was asking for was for the allotmenteers to be consulted and involved. Why do you suppose this was dismissed out of hand? Why do we allow the Big Fat State to suppress the Big Society?

“You're going to discuss allotment maintenance arrangements and the Service Plan tonight.

Current maintenance arrangements are costing something like three times the allotment Income, and while you're not passing this cost on to tenants now you have already resolved to increase rents to break-even, and I have no desire to see the rent tripling. I have attached a spread-sheet of the schedule of payments to show how I reckon this cost.

An analysis of the maintenance arrangements could usefully present the option of tenants becoming more directly involved in their site maintenance. As an example, I cleared 400 yards of ditch around the Wash Common allotments this year. The contractor is still unable to gain access to most of the ditch because the field is wet and had I not done the work it would still not have been cleared. The contractor has been paid £2,373 for this work, and to gain access to the internal ditch the remnants of a one hundred and fifty year old enclosure hedge have been removed. Having only recently become aware of the cultural and historic significance of this hedge I would very much like to have it reinstated with an adjacent site orchard. However, this has been declined because the option of tenants clearing the ditch by hand is dismissed and the contractor will need machine access. Hand-clearing the ditch is sustainable, demonstrably practical and free, and the hedge and orchard increase biodiversity and preserve cultural heritage, so I would ask that you consider this maintenance option in line with your adopted LA21 principles, and to reduce maintenance costs.

You are already committed to Best Value and Local Agenda 21 principles and the cornerstone of both is that you consult service users on these issues. I would ask that you consult the tenants on the service plan to understand what is and isn't important to the allotment service users.”

[planter]

As an allotment holder I am more than happy with the council running the allotments. If self management involves all this bickering I really don't want to know. Our allotments are managed well. Thank you NDC. Perhaps some of SK's amazing energy would be better spent trying to help those that really need help in this world, eg the homeless & starving. What a luxury an allotment would be to them.

[Iommi]

As an allotment holder I am more than happy with the council running the allotments. If self management involves all this bickering I really don't want to know. Our allotments are managed well. Thank you NDC. Perhaps some of SK's amazing energy would be better spent trying to help those that really need help in this world, eg the homeless & starving. What a luxury an allotment would be to them.

What allotment do you tend to? How much do you pay for your plot?

An allotment would be a luxury for those you list, however; it seems the NDC are seeking to make the cost of owning one (unnecessarily) ever more expensive.

All that being said, and taking into account of your altruistic concerns, don't you think you should think about removing the cost of running your allotment from the tax payer?

[Simon Kirby]

As an allotment holder I am more than happy with the council running the allotments. If self management involves all this bickering I really don't want to know. Our allotments are managed well.

Any reason you need to post anonymously planter? Which site are you on?

If you don't want to be involved self-management doesn't affect you. You pay less rent of course, and your site gets a toilet, and your hedge gets mended, but other than that it's business as usual.

In fairness to the tax-payer are you happy to pay the full cost of your hobby, and if you are is it fair to insist that everyone else does, even if they're eagre to do the maintenance and administration and keep their costs down like that?

[Iommi]

It looks like you might get somewhere after all SK?

"Council leader, Graham Jones, has asked that the district council be considered for the Big Society pilot scheme"

West Berkshire bids to be the new Liverpool

[Simon Kirby]

It looks like you might get somewhere after all SK?

"Council leader, Graham Jones, has asked that the district council be considered for the Big Society pilot scheme"

West Berkshire bids to be the new Liverpool

Hmm, interesting. It certainly puts Commissar Userboy in an awkward position.

I don't want to be over-cynical, but I'm not filled with hope, not when Graham Jones cites Parish Planning as a Big Society initiative, and not when the West Berkshire Conservatives actively oppose allotment self-management. There's still this idea that decentralisation means moving responsibility out from central government to local government, but it shouldn't stop there, it needs devolving all the way down to people in their communities. Still, it'll be difficult to discuss Big Society in West Berkshire without the Town Council's activities coming under scrutiny so I welcome that, and it could even turn out well.

[user23]

Hmm, interesting. It certainly puts Commissar Userboy in an awkward position.

I don't want to be over-cynical, but I'm not filled with hope, not when Graham Jones cites Parish Planning as a Big Society initiative, and not when the West Berkshire Conservatives actively oppose allotment self-management. There's still this idea that decentralisation means moving responsibility out from central government to local government, but it shouldn't stop there, it needs devolving all the way down to people in their communities. Still, it'll be difficult to discuss Big Society in West Berkshire without the Town Council's activities coming under scrutiny so I welcome that, and it could even turn out well.

Commissar Userboy?

[NWNREADER]

Hmm, interesting. It certainly puts Commissar Userboy in an awkward position.

I don't want to be over-cynical, but I'm not filled with hope, not when Graham Jones cites Parish Planning as a Big Society initiative, and not when the West Berkshire Conservatives actively oppose allotment self-management.

Not my bag exactly, but I haven't noticed a policy statement on the matter. Especially as it is only a matter for Parish Councils, many of whom are not party-based.

[Simon Kirby]

Not my bag exactly, but I haven't noticed a policy statement on the matter. Especially as it is only a matter for Parish Councils, many of whom are not party-based.

You're right, sorry, I was forgetting that the NTC tories don't represent the whole of the local party.

[Bofem]

Still, it'll be difficult to discuss Big Society in West Berkshire without the Town Council's activities coming under scrutiny so I welcome that, and it could even turn out well.

It's much wider than that though isn't it. Graham Jones cites the Greater Greenham Project as a great example of the Big Society already happening.

I don't know anything about this, so I looked into it (July 8 2010 reports p 10) to find a familiarly depressing picture.

Far from bringing together real people to organise and improve their lives and local areas, it's chaired by a councillor, and crowded with officials from everywhere BUT Greenham.

So what, I hear you cry....at least someone's doing something! Well, no. They came up with a 9 point action plan (of course!), and have failed to deliver 7 of them. Hardly a ringing endorsement for the Big Society then....just more Big Fat State.

But life's too short for moaning. WBC clearly have no intention of handing over the levers of power without a struggle.

There's lots we can do to improve our area, but the starting point is how do we get the control off the authorities in the first place. That means participatory budgeting, direct democracy, and more information on local services (costs/staff etc).

So the title of this thread should be "Start of the Big Society".

[dannyboy]

I feel Godwin's Law about to be proved.....

[Jayjay]

I feel Godwin's Law about to be proved.....

Godwins Law"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches. In other words, Godwin put forth the hyperbolic observation that, given enough time, in any online discussion—regardless of topic or scope— someone inevitably criticizes some point made in the discussion by comparing it to beliefs held by Hitler and the Nazis.

[NWNREADER]

DO NOT mention the War. I did, once, but I think I got away with it.

Surely Hutber's Law is far more the truth for most political advances?

[Thirtover]

The Greater Greenham Project involves many residents see link below. Successes inlcude the youth clubs with over 100 attendances a week, investment being planned in the community centre driven by GCT, Jobcentre Plus adviser in the community every month, around 25% of the members of steering group are now residents (without other hats on), new resident events committee putting on a programme of activities and events for the community.
Residents are raising the issues and priorities and by working with agencies are delivering solutions.
Many of the stretching targets are still to be achieved but lets not put down the successes achieved so far.

Maybe look at Facebook Greenham - Berkshire for what is happenign and what residents think.

Newbury Today - Greenham Volunteers

Attached File(s)

 Greenham_Grapevine_Feb11.pdf ( 423K ) Number of downloads: 1

 

[Bofem]

Thanks for that....nice response.

It's heartening to see so many young people in Greenham volunteering etc, but it's not resident-led is it? It's chaired by a councillor, the purpose of the project is to achieve what the state wants (ie reduce unemployment) not what locals want.

You've highlighted that there's a lot of public money invested in this, but not the poor local accountability...which in effect is the opposite of the Big Society.

If the people who live there only make up a tokenistic 25% of the steering group, they should be given control of the project.

For example, some years ago (under the Lib Dems), WBC was asked to devolve 10% of Greenham's council tax budget to community groups. They refused.

What about the multi-games area in the school for teenagers? Installed by popular demand, then locked up every night by the school caretaker. You couldn't make it up.

As an aside, I'm curious to find out why the increasing drug problems of Pigeons Farm are not part of the project. Where are the Crack House Closure Orders?
Or what about the housing subsidence near Water Lane? You see, there are useful services the Big Fat State can provide if these people weren't so busy telling the good people of Greenham what they need.