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Posted by: Andy Capp Jul 17 2012, 02:45 PM

Firstly, I don't think people should necessarily be fined for a single incidence of verbal abuse. I also think that had the legal process been ignored, John Terry would have not been 'forced' to deny the charge and could have simply offered what I think would have been a far more dignified resolution by offering a public apology for his words..

It seems though, Rio Ferdinand thinks 'choc-ice' is funny. Even when levelled at a 'friend'. While it is not obscene, it is far from a friendly comment that some with strong cultural ties would find very offensive.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-18870695

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Jul 17 2012, 03:06 PM

Andy - But it is Ok for black people to be racist. They call each other N****rs all the time. It's only us bad old white slave masters that are still intolerant bigots that should all be rounded up and shot by the do gooding pc brigade (a large number of which are on this forum!).

Posted by: Timbo Jul 17 2012, 03:37 PM

PC to the highest level. Next it'll be racist to say Vanilla when ordering a cone of white, plain tasting ice cream.
Problem is people don't understand context.

In the last 5 years the whole PC crap has gone to an almighty new level.

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Jul 17 2012, 03:53 PM

I once attended a company in London that served "non-white coffee..."

Posted by: Squelchy Jul 17 2012, 03:56 PM

Do they? Doubtless all your black friends do. But what evidence can you show to support this?

As Chris Rock says, it's all about context. Besides which, and it's awkward to grasp, I know, the word they use when written down ends with an 'a' or an 'as'. It became a short-hand term of describing a certain kind of outlook and life style.

Way back in the long ago, one of the then more popular 'rappers' (notorious B.I.G.) famously made a station ident for radio station 106 KMEL. He told people to "check out my niggas Trace and Franzen" Two of the station's D.J.s. He saw no problem with the fact that they were both white, and by doing so within that context he gave license to all kinds of people to use the word.

Tarantino took it as license certainly and stuck it in most of his movies around that time.

It's all about context.

Posted by: Simon Kirby Jul 17 2012, 03:58 PM

Do you think you could put together a rational defence of your position without all the lazy "do gooding pc brigade" rhetoric?

Are you saying that you want to be free to use whatever racial insults you like, or are you saying that you want to be free to use the N-word to refer to black people as a statement of solidarity with their struggle for equality and dignity?

As for black people refering to each other with the N-word, I can't say I like it, I think the word is beyound all redemption. I believe the word is used ironically, reclaiming the insult in defiance of the insulter, though I might be wrong, I find much of the minority black culture where you'd find that word in use misogynistic and violent so there's no particular reason it has anything helpful to say about racial tolerance. But whatever, even if there is some justification for the use of the N-word black-on-black, if you're not black you can't use it.

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Jul 17 2012, 04:12 PM

There can be NO justification for the use of the word. BY ANYBODY. That is my point.

Posted by: Andy Capp Jul 17 2012, 04:15 PM

I agree. The use by the black community can be an ironic slur on 'us'.

Posted by: Timbo Jul 17 2012, 04:17 PM

I disagree. By making things seem taboo you are in turn causing political correctness and causing that word or references to be taboo.

As said the difference between Gary the Liverpool supporter and Biggie is that Biggie would use the word to refer to a positive bond with friends. And it's easy to tell that in context. Where as Gary giving the one finger salute saying "PISS OFF BACK TO YOUR OWN COUNTRY YOU ******** N***** is quite another.

I dont think there's a justification to use words like profusely or omnipitent but people do and I wouldn't dare try to censor people because I found it personally annoying or wrong

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome Jul 17 2012, 04:21 PM

I'm confused. Its ok for some people to use certain words but not other people. Who defines who is allowed to say what? Do me a favour and publish a dictionary for us poor souls who don't keep up to date with modern music of words we are allowed to say and those we are not. The goal posts seem to move all the time in any case.

Posted by: Timbo Jul 17 2012, 04:27 PM

No, I'm saying it's about context. I'm not saying only certain people can say certain words. But there are certain cultures who use the words more.

Posted by: FactFile Jul 17 2012, 04:41 PM

So, one minute you're lambasting the 'PC' brigade, the next you seem to be saying that you actually want to BAN words.



Clearly.




If you're unsure, keep it buttoned.

Posted by: spartacus Jul 17 2012, 11:02 PM

Man, dey is talkin' gangsta innit... 'n dey is talkin' to their bro's in the hood man innit.... wicked.....
(normally after watching too many american TV cop shows)

Interesting to note that one of the very few derogatory words from those american TV shows of yesteryear that never caught on this side of the pond is 'Honky'...
Supposedly a term of offence used against white (or Caucasian) people, but can you imagine anyone trying to make the same sort of fuss over being called a 'honky' and being taken seriously? Are we less sensitive to supposedly racial insults?
HuggyBear in Starsky & Hutch got away with it.... but I guess it's all down to context....




**** sight longer than 5 years


Really? Pressure from the masses (of Daily Mail readers) helps feed the PC machine though... How many people (of a certain age) have a golliwog doll hidden away up in the loft or had one when they or their sisters were toddlers. That's something that can no longer be admitted to without bringing shame upon yourself as some form of racist....

A collection of golliwog pins from Robinson jam anyone? I know I had a few somewhere, but if I brought those out to show the grandchildren they'd be horrified (for no apparent reason)

btw are we still allowed to used the racial descriptive term 'Fuzzy-Wuzzies'?


What about words like '*******'? (EDIT: Obviously not as it's been bleeped out... I say again spa-stic) Ian Dury had no problems using it and even wrote the song Spasticus Autisticus. However if I want to listen to that album again I'd better make sure I've got the headphones on or I'll have the PC police breaking down the door and locking me up in irons....


.....otherwise you may offend the thin skinned

Posted by: Simon Kirby Jul 18 2012, 08:32 AM

Or simply offend.

You've broadended the argument, but the problem with "*******" is that it was used as a term of offence. It was a perfectly servicable word for a specific physical health problem, but it was co-opted by that section of society that felt challenged and offended by the condition and became a catch-all term of abuse not just for people with cerebral palsy but for a variety of non-******* physical health problems such as multiple sclerosis and muscular dystrophy, and then more generally for people who were mentally retarded, as well as people with neurological disorders such as epilepsy who were prone to "spas-out" - a phrase I've used myself.

It's not the words themselves, it's what the words connote, the payload of hatred and social rejection. Calling an Australian as Ozzie is fine because despite the banter there's a deep underlying respect and affection in no small part born out of Gallipoli, but call a Pakistani a ****, and the payload is quite different - similar words with exactly the same derivation, but the senses couldn't be more different.

Posted by: Newbelly Jul 18 2012, 08:37 AM

Re the “choc-ice” comment, black police officers have been called “Coconuts” for years by some in the West Indian “community”. Some people refer to this as “double” racism as it insults both black and white...

Posted by: Timbo Jul 18 2012, 12:20 PM

Very much agree in principle. I remember that story, the woman got arrested for having a teddy called Muhammed. And then that whole court case over someone who had a gollywog doll in a window.. racism.. If people didn't make these things seem taboo, and like it didn't have to be talked about in hushed whispers, the PC-ness would go away. I use the word spa-stic all the time. Obviously not as an insult but mainly as slang to describe things which have broken or ceased functioning..."my PC has gone spasticated", I'd tell my friend.

Most of the PC-ness comes from the older generation. Many people are still inherently racist and I suppose compensate by making things out to be racist which aren't, to make them look not racist. (confusing logic I know...)

And the younger, fresher generation tend, generally, not to pay much attention to it. I remember a few kids I used to work with, white, would refer to their friends as "n****az" or "homies" when the Grand Theft Auto San Andreas game was released. There were a couple of black kids in the class and they never really minded, I did take them to one side quietly as if it was causing them offence I wanted to nip it in the bud, but they said they did not feel offended by it at all, as it was just a way of talking about people they were close with.

Posted by: Timbo Jul 18 2012, 12:25 PM

Simon, I disagree my friend. (what happened with the shed in the end?)

Ozzie is short (speaking terms) for Australian.
Brit or Scot is short for British/Scottish.
A **** can be used offensively but is also short for a person of Pakistani origin.

I'm friends with some people who are indian, who are English born and bred, but bi-lingual in Punjabi. They teach me all sorts of bad words, we insult each other in Punjabi all the time, and they don't care. They don't call if you call them a ****, or if you say you'll get immigration onto them. Then again they are my friends.

Ah well. It's all crap anyway, I wonder how long until they implant devices into our brain and censor us before we can even speak...?

Posted by: Nothing Much Jul 18 2012, 01:08 PM

Sorry. Pointless comment best forgotten.
I like the delete button . It gets me out of a lot of trouble.
ce.

Posted by: JeffG Jul 18 2012, 01:50 PM

I though "homie" was just US slang for "mate", and nothing offensive.

Posted by: Timbo Jul 18 2012, 02:44 PM

Yeah it is but black people say it so it's obviously racist if white people do.

Posted by: JeffG Jul 18 2012, 04:36 PM

(post deleted)

Posted by: Simon Kirby Jul 18 2012, 05:16 PM

But you miss the point; Ozzie, Brit, Scott, **** - they're just short names for the poeple of those nations, there's nothing inherently offensive in the words, they're not racial slurs like Frog, Hun, or Mick. What sets **** apart is what the word connotes - a race-hatred of Pakistanis. It's not possible now to use the word without invoking that race-hatred, even if that isn't the intention.

The shed's probably something for another thread, though there's not much more to say yet, I was forced to quit my allotment by an oppressive and self-serving Town Council and until I get the meeting minutes there's not much hope of any resolution to the issue. The complaint is with the Information Commissioner but it'll takes several more months before I get a decision. Thanks for asking though.

Posted by: Timbo Jul 18 2012, 06:09 PM

Yeah, I see what you're saying. That's societies fault though, surely? Which is what I'm saying - certain words cause taboo issues!



Somethings never change. Sorry you had to give it up. It was a really nice one.

Posted by: Andy Capp Jul 18 2012, 06:26 PM

Incidentally, I understand that the word 'Brit' is a pejorative term in Northern Ireland.

Posted by: Simon Kirby Jul 18 2012, 07:40 PM

I didn't know that but it makes sense, the British aren't loved by everyone in the North.

Posted by: gel Jul 18 2012, 07:43 PM

All Very Confusing/ Petty-IMO:

Now we know the N**r word is sacred/ top of the list unless you are shall we say African;
sort of reverse racism surely.
What about the original derivative Negro?; ink I buy has that word in, when it lists black
as content of cartridge, for other languages.

Is Chocolate about to join banned/sensive words list, alongside Brown/ Black/Coloured?
One of latter seems to cause offence to some sensitive souls, though can't recall which

P**i, was a short form surely of Pakistani, but only one is a defined (no longer usable) word shall we say.

Why is it, I as a Caucasian don't feel miffed if referred to as a Limey by a Yank (banned yet?),
or a Pom by an Oz etc?
Is a 'Paddy' now forbidden too, alongside possibly 'Mick'?

Banning things ie words/alcohol etc does not stop their use of course..may encourage more uptake.

Posted by: Simon Kirby Jul 18 2012, 08:05 PM

I'd say it's all about social mores and norms, not really about language at all. "Peado" for instance is a perfectly acceptable term of abuse for peadophiles, not because there's anything intrinsically acceptable in the word, but because it's acceptable to hate and abuse peadophiles, whereas "lunatic" isn't now an acceptable way of describing someone with mental health issues, again not because the word is inappropriate, which it is, but because it connotes a fear and mockery of the insane. It wasn't always thus, the Victorians displayed the mentally ill in zoos for the amusment of the middle-classes and thought nothing of indulging their artistic interest in adolescents and pre-pubescents. Words don't cause the taboos, language just follows.

Posted by: Newbelly Jul 18 2012, 08:08 PM

And now we have "Big Brother".

Posted by: Biker1 Jul 18 2012, 09:26 PM

So true!
We haven't advanced at all have we?

Posted by: GMR Jul 19 2012, 04:23 PM

You talk rubbish sometimes.

A black man calling another black man a N**** is not racist. A white man calling a black man that name is; and abusive. This is because blacks were made slaves and suppressed by whites. Not the other way around.

Of course blacks can be racist or ignorant to whites; but this isn't the case here. This debate is over Cole being called a "choc ice" which means black with white inside (i.e. blacks acting white or for whites). Not as Ferdinand said to try to get out of a hole he dug for himself.

Edited....

Posted by: Jayjay Jul 19 2012, 04:37 PM

Being born and bred in an area that has always had a more ethnic culture than Berkshire, this is a turn of phrase I have heard all my life. It is used as an insult to a person of mixed race, especially police officers. Means you look black but your values are white or you think/act like a white person. Not that you are a master over whites.

Posted by: Newbelly Jul 19 2012, 04:41 PM

Correct.
Edit: It can also mean "traitor"

Posted by: GMR Jul 19 2012, 05:08 PM

I just read back what I said and, yes, I wrote it wrong. It actually means black on the outside, while acting white or supporting white.

Posted by: GMR Jul 19 2012, 05:08 PM

Correct; traitor to other blacks.

Posted by: Andy Capp Jul 19 2012, 05:40 PM

The way I look at it, a person would use the term 'choc ice' because they are prejudiced against whites. That is a form of racism. If one treats people equally, then there can't be a 'choc ice', (where either material is of contrasting colour). Rio Ferdinand wasn't 'being' 'racist', but I think he showed a side of himself that he now regrets doing.

Posted by: Jayjay Jul 19 2012, 05:58 PM

Agree. Everybody should be treated equally. I would like to see all prejudice dealt with in the sme manner we have dealt with racial prejudice.

Posted by: GMR Jul 19 2012, 06:38 PM

I disagree. "Choc Ice" is not used because they are prejudice against whites but because they act like whites. Which is totally different. They are not criticising whites but other blacks.

Posted by: GMR Jul 19 2012, 06:39 PM

I agree; all prejudice should be treated equal.

Posted by: Andy Capp Jul 19 2012, 07:28 PM

Other than colour, what is 'different' about white or black people? We're all the same, aren't we? As 'choc ice' is a pejorative term (it is meant as an insult as if 'being white' (whatever that means), is wrong), then that is nailed on racism.

Posted by: GMR Jul 19 2012, 08:06 PM

Of course we are all the same, but that doesn't change what I said or how those words are used.

Posted by: Andy Capp Jul 19 2012, 08:10 PM

I'm sorry but I think it does, and for the reasons I have already mentioned.

The tweet was: "Looks like Ashley Cole's going to be their choc ice, then again he's always been a sell out. Shame on him."
Ferdinand responded with: "I hear you fella! Choc ice is classic! hahahahahahha!!"

Anyway you look at it, it was used in a condescending manner which was using race and ethnicity as a slur. What is wrong with a black man being 'white'?

Posted by: Berkshirelad Jul 19 2012, 08:51 PM

Worked for Michael Jackson...

Posted by: Timbo Jul 19 2012, 10:53 PM

Wasn't he a white man being black?
Might be confusing myself with Dappy Flopalopalus. Sorry.

I just think the whole thing should just go away, every week almost, we see about who said nought to who...and who said what to you..
And it's just like the whole tittle-tattle thing at school. If personal offense was recieved I'm sure Ashley Cole would have made a big stand about it. I've not seen anyone post up what he thinks.

The police should stop wasting time investigating people calling each other frozen dairy products and actually do something useful.

Posted by: GMR Jul 20 2012, 04:32 PM

Nothing, other than it was used as an insult.