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Posted by: Simon Kirby Sep 10 2016, 09:08 AM

Newbury Town Council are to http://www.newburytoday.co.uk/news/home/19224/council-gives-backing-for-life-size-jack-of-newbury-statue.html, robed in a fur-trimmed cloak as he stands aloft and captured in the moment he flips the finger at the town's people. The Council are looking for a model to pose for the statue. Any suggestions for a good candidate?

Posted by: Biker1 Sep 10 2016, 09:21 AM

QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Sep 10 2016, 10:08 AM)

Newbury Town Council are to http://www.newburytoday.co.uk/news/home/19224/council-gives-backing-for-life-size-jack-of-newbury-statue.html, robed in a fur-trimmed cloak as he stands aloft and captured in the moment he flips the finger at the town's people. The Council are looking for a model to pose for the statue. Any suggestions for a good candidate?

Go on Simon. Go for it!!

You must have the odd cloak and woollen hat in you wardrobe somewhere?

P.S. Oh and you'll need some tights!

Posted by: je suis Charlie Sep 10 2016, 11:17 AM

I'm sure he could knit some out of eco cauliflower stalks.

Posted by: Turin Machine Sep 10 2016, 01:04 PM

Or maybe out of RED cabbage leaves!

Posted by: On the edge Sep 10 2016, 03:25 PM

Couldn't the statue be sculpted bent over and it could also serve as a bike stand.

On a serious note, what about a statue of an American Airman, arguably the US base is the only unique local thing deep rooted Newbury people seem to have any regard for.

Posted by: Turin Machine Sep 10 2016, 04:04 PM

A screaming Eagle.

Posted by: newres Sep 11 2016, 01:55 PM

QUOTE (On the edge @ Sep 10 2016, 04:25 PM)

Couldn't the statue be sculpted bent over and it could also serve as a bike stand.

On a serious note, what about a statue of an American Airman, arguably the US base is the only unique local thing deep rooted Newbury people seem to have any regard for.

Newbury is a bit lacking in important history. Coincidentally I've just had a similar conversation with someone.

Posted by: JeffG Sep 11 2016, 04:21 PM

QUOTE (newres @ Sep 11 2016, 02:55 PM)

Newbury is a bit lacking in important history. Coincidentally I've just had a similar conversation with someone.

I assume the Civil War doesn't count then?

Posted by: Simon Kirby Sep 11 2016, 04:22 PM

Here's the picture of the man painted in 1550, six years before he condemned the protestant Newbury Martyrs to burn at the stake on Enborne Road for reading the bible in English rather than Latin - such a model of tolerance, no wonder our town council are so happy to venerate the chap.

The portrait shows the gentleman pointing unhappily at his inadequate manhood - perhaps a family trait - his father's name was Smallwood.

Posted by: On the edge Sep 11 2016, 04:27 PM

QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Sep 11 2016, 05:22 PM)

Here's the picture of the man painted in 1550, six years before he condemned the protestant Newbury Martyrs to burn at the stake on Enborne Road for reading the bible in English rather than Latin - such a model of tolerance, no wonder our town council are so happy to venerate the chap.

The portrait shows the gentleman pointing unhappily at his inadequate manhood - perhaps a family trait - his father's name was Smallwood.

...Aaah, that explains the flagstaff fettish!

Posted by: newres Sep 11 2016, 05:20 PM

QUOTE (JeffG @ Sep 11 2016, 05:21 PM)

I assume the Civil War doesn't count then?

Well in comparison to Bristol, which is where I'm from, being the location for a battle or two in the civil war isn't that much of a big deal. Next you'll be telling me we are important in cinema history because a couple of scenes from Star Wars will filmed on the common.

Posted by: Andy Capp Sep 11 2016, 05:21 PM

QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Sep 11 2016, 05:22 PM)

Here's the picture of the man painted in 1550, six years before he condemned the protestant Newbury Martyrs to burn at the stake on Enborne Road for reading the bible in English rather than Latin - such a model of tolerance, no wonder our town council are so happy to venerate the chap.

The portrait shows the gentleman pointing unhappily at his inadequate manhood - perhaps a family trait - his father's name was Smallwood.

I understand he was enacting the law at the time and he tried to persuade one of the martyrs to 'repent'. After the trial he also called for more religious tolerance.

Posted by: Simon Kirby Sep 11 2016, 05:31 PM

QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Sep 11 2016, 06:21 PM)

I understand he was enacting the law at the time and he tried to persuade one of the martyrs to 'repent'. After the trial he also called for more religious tolerance.

Seriously, you're going with the "only following orders" defence? I have no religious convictions of my own, but if I were to set up a statue to anyone in this situation it would be to the principled martyrs who stuck to their convictions in an honest belief that what they were doing would make the world a better place, and not to the establishment despot who was happy to execute dissenters with the most appalling barbarity if that's what it took to prosper. I'd sooner have a statue of Idi Amin.

Posted by: Andy Capp Sep 11 2016, 05:38 PM

QUOTE (newres @ Sep 11 2016, 06:20 PM)

Well in comparison to Bristol, which is where I'm from, being the location for a battle or two in the civil war isn't that much of a big deal. Next you'll be telling me we are important in cinema history because a couple of scenes from Star Wars will filmed on the common.

Some historians hold the 1st Battle of Newbury to be the defining moment of the war. The 1st Battle of Newbury halted a string of Roylist victories and is seen as the start of the end for the Royalist cause.

Posted by: Andy Capp Sep 11 2016, 05:47 PM

QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Sep 11 2016, 06:31 PM)

Seriously, you're going with the "only following orders" defence? I have no religious convictions of my own, but if I were to set up a statue to anyone in this situation it would be to the principled martyrs who stuck to their convictions in an honest belief that what they were doing would make the world a better place, and not to the establishment despot who was happy to execute dissenters with the most appalling barbarity if that's what it took to prosper. I'd sooner have a statue of Idi Amin.

I am adding some balance to your overtly one sided view. I also understand he was not happy to condemn the men.

Your Idi Amin comment is crass, it is stupid to extract life then and apply the standards now. Records of the event are not concise, but I suggest your outrage is both shallow and without solid foundation.

Taking your puerile moral outrage I think it is about time we tor down statues of Richard Ist and Churchill, such was their haste to prosecute warfare.

Posted by: JeffG Sep 11 2016, 05:51 PM

QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Sep 11 2016, 06:38 PM)

Some historians hold the 1st Battle of Newbury to be the defining moment of the war. The 1st Battle of Newbury halted a string of Roylist victories and is seen as the start of the end for the Royalist cause.

Since I come from Bristol as well, I am not particularly well up on Newbury history. However I do know there were two Civil War battles fought here which are pretty important events - at least as important (if not more so) than John Cabot sailing off into the wild blue yonder.

Posted by: Simon Kirby Sep 11 2016, 05:56 PM

QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Sep 11 2016, 06:38 PM)

Some historians hold the 1st Battle of Newbury to be the defining moment of the war. The 1st Battle of Newbury halted a string of Roylist victories and is seen as the start of the end for the Royalist cause.

It happened near Newbury, and that's all that can be said for it, it was hardly something that Newbury contributed to - I imagine Newbury's good Burghers were keeping their heads down and doing their best to profit from the situation by selling their wares to both sides.

If you want a defining event in Newbury's history it was the Newbury Martyrs - "Berkshire has the honour of having received the doctrines of the Reformation as early as any part of England, and Fuller says, "Let other places give the honour to the town of Newbury, because it started first in the race of the reformed religion."" See http://www.berkshirehistory.com/articles/newbury_martyrs.html. For a brief moment in the town's history Newbury was leading the land in free-thinking - now that is something to celebrate, only it's hardly something the establishment are going to want to promote.

Posted by: Simon Kirby Sep 11 2016, 06:01 PM

QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Sep 11 2016, 06:47 PM)

I am adding some balance to your overtly one sided view. I also understand he was not happy to condemn the men.

Your Idi Amin comment is crass, it is stupid to extract life then and apply the standards now. Records of the event are not concise, but I suggest your outrage is both shallow and without solid foundation.

Taking your puerile moral outrage I think it is about time we tor down statues of Richard Ist and Churchill, such was their haste to prosecute warfare.

Idi Amin was simply applying the law as it stood, and he was of course supported in his despotism by the British, so why not a statue to him if we're going to venerate immolants?

Posted by: newres Sep 11 2016, 06:05 PM

QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Sep 11 2016, 06:56 PM)

It happened near Newbury, and that's all that can be said for it, it was hardly something that Newbury contributed to

That's how I see it. Newbury was a just place to rest your horses on the way to Bristol.

Posted by: On the edge Sep 11 2016, 06:34 PM

QUOTE (newres @ Sep 11 2016, 07:05 PM)

That's how I see it. Newbury was a just place to rest your horses on the way to Bristol.

Yes, and to be ripped off:-

The famous in at Speenhamland
Stands just below the hill
May well be called the Pelican
From its enormous bill

Oh well, at least Tax Credits were invented here!

Posted by: On the edge Sep 11 2016, 06:44 PM

QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Sep 11 2016, 06:56 PM)

It happened near Newbury, and that's all that can be said for it, it was hardly something that Newbury contributed to - I imagine Newbury's good Burghers were keeping their heads down and doing their best to profit from the situation by selling their wares to both sides.

If you want a defining event in Newbury's history it was the Newbury Martyrs - "Berkshire has the honour of having received the doctrines of the Reformation as early as any part of England, and Fuller says, "Let other places give the honour to the town of Newbury, because it started first in the race of the reformed religion."" See http://www.berkshirehistory.com/articles/newbury_martyrs.html. For a brief moment in the town's history Newbury was leading the land in free-thinking - now that is something to celebrate, only it's hardly something the establishment are going to want to promote.

I wonder in these less physical times for dissenters the Town Council see any irony with regard to still recent events?

Posted by: Simon Kirby Sep 11 2016, 06:52 PM

QUOTE (On the edge @ Sep 11 2016, 07:34 PM)

Yes, and to be ripped off:-

The famous in at Speenhamland
Stands just below the hill
May well be called the Pelican
From its enormous bill

Oh well, at least Tax Credits were invented here!

Posted by: Andy Capp Sep 11 2016, 06:58 PM

QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Sep 11 2016, 06:56 PM)

It happened near Newbury, and that's all that can be said for it, it was hardly something that Newbury contributed to - I imagine Newbury's good Burghers were keeping their heads down and doing their best to profit from the situation by selling their wares to both sides.

The contribution argument is irrelevant. The event took place here. The battle line went from somewhere near your old allotment all the way to somewhere near Kingsbridge Road. It was the first time the Roylist army couldn't defeat the parliament army, which meant it was able to pass the royalists and fortify London's defences.

QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Sep 11 2016, 06:56 PM)

If you want a defining event in Newbury's history it was the Newbury Martyrs - "Berkshire has the honour of having received the doctrines of the Reformation as early as any part of England, and Fuller says, "Let other places give the honour to the town of Newbury, because it started first in the race of the reformed religion."" See http://www.berkshirehistory.com/articles/newbury_martyrs.html. For a brief moment in the town's history Newbury was leading the land in free-thinking - now that is something to celebrate, only it's hardly something the establishment are going to want to promote.

There is a tribute stone for martyrs, mind you, the Reformation was not without its own cruelty and what we would now call inhuman acts. It would also be a distortion to say it was a leading exponent of free-thinking.

Posted by: Andy Capp Sep 11 2016, 07:12 PM

QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Sep 11 2016, 07:01 PM)

Idi Amin was simply applying the law as it stood, and he was of course supported in his despotism by the British, so why not a statue to him if we're going to venerate immolants?

A cursory search on the Internet would quickly expose your comment as verging on the repugnant. I think you are allowing your hatred of the town council to distort you own judgment.

Posted by: Simon Kirby Sep 11 2016, 10:48 PM

QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Sep 11 2016, 08:12 PM)

A cursory search on the Internet would quickly expose your comment as verging on the repugnant. I think you are allowing your hatred of the town council to distort you own judgment.

Idi Amin was a butcher, but then Winchcombe's burning to death of the Newbury Martyrs because they said their sky fairy disagrees with his sky fairy is about as depraved as it is possible to be - and you are seriously telling me that Winchcombe is a right and proper person to venerate with a bronze statue because he was only following orders and he was after all immensely rich and well connected? I suggest you question your own judgement.

Posted by: Simon Kirby Sep 11 2016, 11:00 PM

QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Sep 11 2016, 07:58 PM)

The contribution argument is irrelevant. The event took place here. The battle line went from somewhere near your old allotment all the way to somewhere near Kingsbridge Road. It was the first time the Roylist army couldn't defeat the parliament army, which meant it was able to pass the royalists and fortify London's defences.

Yes, it was a significant development in the civil war, but to co-opt it as some defining moment for the shop keepers and wool merchants of a timid parochial backwater is laughable.

QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Sep 11 2016, 07:58 PM)

There is a tribute stone for martyrs, mind you, the Reformation was not without its own cruelty and what we would now call inhuman acts. It would also be a distortion to say it was a leading exponent of free-thinking.

For sure, there was religious bigotry on all sides, but the Newbury Martyrs found something in themselves to challenge orthodoxy in a town where appeasing the establishment was all that anyone had ever known, and that was a defining moment and something worth celebrating.

Posted by: Andy Capp Sep 12 2016, 05:55 AM

Simon, I see a dishonesty in your recent posts, including strawman arguments, that make me question the wisdom of my support of your struggle with the authorities. Put blunt, it seems you are prepared to wildly distort facts to suit your argument.

Posted by: On the edge Sep 12 2016, 06:45 AM

I can simply see frustration.

As to the statue, to be honest, even before this discussion I was very uncomfortable with the idea and it is to do with the martyrs. Their trial and its outcome have left a stain on Newbury and is little formally remembered.

Here we had a small group of people with very strong beliefs. They weren't advocating violence, or even stirring insurrection, simply challenging the establishment thinking.

On the tribunal, a couple 'felt sorry' for them; one bring the subject of the statue. They did try to get them to recant or in effect, do a John Prescott and cross their fingers when taking the loyal oath. For me, this 'feeling sorry' demonstrates that although justice might be served, what was happening was not righteous.

In the case of those burnt, particularly following the offers if they'd recanted, it was a matter of faith; this wasn't about religion. As Tony Benn once said, religion is something you'd kill for, but faith is what you die for.

In other words, John Winchcombe and his peers just stood by and let it happen. Ironically, that sums up a lot of what's wrong today. Thus for me, a statue of the martyrs would be a far more honourable memorial.

Posted by: Andy Capp Sep 12 2016, 08:12 AM

Sadly that isn't what the record shows. They in effect died for religion; they insulted the Pope and the Catholic Church which at the time was heresy, punishable by death. Mr Winchcombe sat in council and decided they were guilty, which they were, the punishment was preordained.

But, it is futile and wrong to judge by modern standards, they were ignorant people back then.

Despite Simon's unjust and unfair comments, I too see the value in a Martyr's memorial. I am also cynical about installing a statue now, after all this time, other than a council's wish to create something interesting for the tourists. Another vanity project as it were. But then again, isn't that what most statues are about.

Posted by: Turin Machine Sep 12 2016, 08:31 AM

Err, time for me to either get sneered at or ignored but, quite like the idea of a statue of an American airman. They were part of Newbury life for a good while and it's due in part to the sacrifice of a good many of them that we are free to even have these discussions today.

Posted by: On the edge Sep 12 2016, 08:36 AM

QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Sep 12 2016, 09:12 AM)

Sadly that isn't what the record shows. They in effect died for religion; they insulted the Pope and the Catholic Church which at the time was heresy, punishable by death. Mr Winchcombe decided they were guilty, which they were, the punishment was preordained.

But, it is futile and wrong to judge by modern standards, they were ignorant people back then.

Despite Simon's unjust and unfair comments, I too see the value in a Martyr's memorial. I am also cynical about installing a statue now, after all this time, other than a council's wish to create something interesting for the tourists. Another vanity project as it were. But then again, isn't that what most statues are about.

I suppose it all comes down to the interpretation of words, it was religion that killed them to be sure; but they died for their faith. They had ample opportunity to recant, indeed deny their belief and simply carry on as before. No one would have been any the wiser.

Yes, the situation at the time was very different. It's often quite illuminating to look at past events with the full benefit of hindsight. In this case, we can now see the reformation was simply a human power struggle, arguably between factions of the same 'party'. Today's bickering about who are the real socialists in the Labour Party give some inkling of the turmoil; scale that up and you get physical conflict.

I certainly agree with your view on statues generally, still as a friend of mine who lived in Westminster used to say, they do keep the dog amused!

Posted by: newres Sep 12 2016, 10:23 AM

QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Sep 12 2016, 09:31 AM)

Err, time for me to either get sneered at or ignored but, quite like the idea of a statue of an American airman. They were part of Newbury life for a good while and it's due in part to the sacrifice of a good many of them that we are free to even have these discussions today.