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Proposed 60 mph speed limit, Will it REALLY cut pollution? |
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Jan 7 2014, 10:57 PM
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My view is that I don't believe it will. Yes, a constant speed is almost always the most efficient way of using fuel, at the right speed that is, but with the high volume of vehicles on the roads, will it actually work?
I suspect all it will do is bring down the average speed of those that usually drive at 80 plus, to a slightly lower level. Does driving faster actually increase the volume of pollutants expelled? After all, the fuel is only being burnt at a faster rate at higher speed, so surely a litre burnt in say, an hour as opposed to thirty minutes will still convert to the same amount output, only over an extended period of time?
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There their, loose loser!
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Jan 10 2014, 02:04 PM
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QUOTE (Blake @ Jan 10 2014, 12:38 PM) ![*](style_images/NWN/post_snapback.gif) I am wholeheartedly in favour of the 60mph limit to slash pollution. My only criticism is that it should slightly lower, say 55mph.
Time is running out for our world to save itself from the catastrophe of climate change.
In all honesty, I'd like to see the whole country adopt this more rational speed limit. It would help slash gas consumption, air pollution and reduce the severity of collisions.
Bring it on! Are you American? Rather than that you need to tackle things GLOBALLY. We are just a drop in the ocean. China is by far the worst country for pollution. Cows pollute more than cars. We can make beef without the need for cows anymore. Can we kill all the cows and the Chinese?
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:p Grammar: the difference between knowing your poop and knowing you're poop.
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Jan 10 2014, 02:10 PM
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QUOTE (motormad @ Jan 10 2014, 02:04 PM) ![*](style_images/NWN/post_snapback.gif) Are you American?
Rather than that you need to tackle things GLOBALLY. We are just a drop in the ocean. China is by far the worst country for pollution. Cows pollute more than cars. We can make beef without the need for cows anymore. Can we kill all the cows and the Chinese? Yes, climate change needs international action to solve but we have our part to play and we should set a good example here and now. We need to be in the vanguard!
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Jan 11 2014, 12:42 PM
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QUOTE (Blake @ Jan 10 2014, 02:10 PM) ![*](style_images/NWN/post_snapback.gif) Yes, climate change needs international action to solve but we have our part to play and we should set a good example here and now.
We need to be in the vanguard! The speed limit proposal is not intended to reduce greenhouses gasses so climate change is not an issue here. The intention is to reduce NO 2 locally because it is a respiratory irritant and it mostly comes from local traffic.
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Right an injustice - give Simon Kirby his allotment back!
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Jan 11 2014, 01:13 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jan 11 2014, 12:42 PM) ![*](style_images/NWN/post_snapback.gif) The speed limit proposal is not intended to reduce greenhouses gasses so climate change is not an issue here. The intention is to reduce NO2 locally because it is a respiratory irritant and it mostly comes from local traffic. How is the NO 2 output differ from CO 2? I presume both will be effect by RPM/Load rather than physical speed. I would imagine that both are affected more by driving style, and therefore driving smoothly is far better than sharp acceleration/braking. The solution is therefore more about trying to improve peoples driving style! I have found the variable speed limits on the M25 good at this - but you still get some who accelerate to the car in front and then brake heavily.
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Jan 11 2014, 01:44 PM
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QUOTE (MontyPython @ Jan 11 2014, 01:13 PM) ![*](style_images/NWN/post_snapback.gif) How is the NO2 output differ from CO2? I presume both will be effect by RPM/Load rather than physical speed.
I would imagine that both are affected more by driving style, and therefore driving smoothly is far better than sharp acceleration/braking. The solution is therefore more about trying to improve peoples driving style! I have found the variable speed limits on the M25 good at this - but you still get some who accelerate to the car in front and then brake heavily. The formation of NO 2 ( and other oxides of nitrogen) depends on the engine temperature, and their emission depends on the performance of the exhaust and catalytic converter, so I'm guessing that there might possibly be some correlation between those factors and the speed, though what that might be I have no idea. I'm not saying the idea makes sense, just saying what the idea behind the proposal is. It's lamentable that the press coverage did nothing to inform the debate and leant only on the motorist's frustration at having to go slower, though in practice that does appear to be the only thing that matters to people.
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Right an injustice - give Simon Kirby his allotment back!
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Jan 11 2014, 02:28 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jan 11 2014, 01:44 PM) ![*](style_images/NWN/post_snapback.gif) The formation of NO2 ( and other oxides of nitrogen) depends on the engine temperature, and their emission depends on the performance of the exhaust and catalytic converter, so I'm guessing that there might possibly be some correlation between those factors and the speed, though what that might be I have no idea. I'm not saying the idea makes sense, just saying what the idea behind the proposal is. It's lamentable that the press coverage did nothing to inform the debate and leant only on the motorist's frustration at having to go slower, though in practice that does appear to be the only thing that matters to people. Thanks Simon! as I am sure you guessed I wasn't questioning you, rather the facts!
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x2lls Proposed 60 mph speed limit Jan 7 2014, 10:57 PM Andy1 A constant speed would be nice rather than the usu... Jan 7 2014, 11:22 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) Claude I imagine a car makes more noise pollution travell... Jan 8 2014, 08:48 AM motormad Toyota Prius is more economical at 80 than it is a... Jan 8 2014, 10:37 AM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) Simon Kirby QUOTE (motormad @ Jan 8 2014, 10:37 AM) T... Jan 8 2014, 01:16 PM motormad The most efficient speed of an engine is at it... Jan 8 2014, 02:29 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) Andy Capp QUOTE (motormad @ Jan 8 2014, 02:29 PM) T... Jan 8 2014, 03:46 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) motormad QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jan 8 2014, 03:46 PM) ... Jan 8 2014, 04:52 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) Andy Capp QUOTE (motormad @ Jan 8 2014, 04:52 PM) H... Jan 8 2014, 05:09 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) Simon Kirby QUOTE (motormad @ Jan 8 2014, 02:29 PM) T... Jan 8 2014, 04:51 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) motormad QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jan 8 2014, 04:51 PM... Jan 8 2014, 07:21 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) gel QUOTE (motormad @ Jan 8 2014, 02:29 PM) T... Jan 10 2014, 03:51 PM Biker1 A mere drop in the ocean and kowtowing to EU direc... Jan 8 2014, 03:57 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) MontyPython QUOTE (Biker1 @ Jan 8 2014, 03:57 PM) A m... Jan 8 2014, 04:43 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) Simon Kirby QUOTE (MontyPython @ Jan 8 2014, 04:43 PM... Jan 8 2014, 04:56 PM motormad Hydrogen DOES have infrastructure. There are exist... Jan 8 2014, 05:21 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) On the edge QUOTE (motormad @ Jan 8 2014, 05:21 PM) H... Jan 8 2014, 05:41 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) blackdog QUOTE (On the edge @ Jan 8 2014, 05:41 PM... Jan 8 2014, 06:15 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) Andy Capp QUOTE (motormad @ Jan 8 2014, 05:21 PM) H... Jan 8 2014, 06:19 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) Biker1 QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jan 8 2014, 08:20 PM) ... Jan 8 2014, 09:06 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) Andy Capp QUOTE (Biker1 @ Jan 8 2014, 09:06 PM) The... Jan 8 2014, 09:13 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) Simon Kirby QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jan 8 2014, 09:13 PM) ... Jan 8 2014, 09:29 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) Biker1 QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jan 8 2014, 11:13 PM) ... Jan 8 2014, 09:32 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) Exhausted QUOTE (Biker1 @ Jan 8 2014, 09:32 PM) Tot... Jan 8 2014, 10:45 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) Andy Capp QUOTE (Biker1 @ Jan 8 2014, 09:32 PM) Tot... Jan 9 2014, 12:25 AM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) motormad QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jan 9 2014, 12:25 AM) ... Jan 9 2014, 10:13 AM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) Simon Kirby QUOTE (Biker1 @ Jan 8 2014, 09:06 PM) The... Jan 8 2014, 09:27 PM Biker1 Yes, but what are aeroplanes going to run on, and ... Jan 8 2014, 05:52 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) Andy Capp QUOTE (Biker1 @ Jan 8 2014, 05:52 PM) Yes... Jan 8 2014, 06:20 PM Andy Capp I understand that hydrogen is manufactured by burn... Jan 8 2014, 08:32 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) On the edge QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jan 8 2014, 08:32 PM) ... Jan 8 2014, 09:03 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) Exhausted QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jan 8 2014, 08:32 PM) ... Jan 8 2014, 09:09 PM motormad http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production Jan 8 2014, 08:49 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) Andy Capp QUOTE (motormad @ Jan 8 2014, 08:49 PM) h... Jan 8 2014, 08:58 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) motormad QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jan 8 2014, 08:58 PM) ... Jan 8 2014, 11:13 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) Andy Capp QUOTE (motormad @ Jan 8 2014, 11:13 PM) H... Jan 9 2014, 12:26 AM JeffG For people like me who didn't have a clue what... Jan 10 2014, 11:22 AM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) Andy Capp QUOTE (Blake @ Jan 10 2014, 12:38 PM) I a... Jan 10 2014, 12:52 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) Andy Capp QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jan 11 2014, 01:44 P... Jan 11 2014, 06:20 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) JeffG QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jan 11 2014, 06:20 PM)... Jan 13 2014, 11:31 AM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) x2lls QUOTE (JeffG @ Jan 13 2014, 11:31 AM) It ... Jan 13 2014, 11:53 AM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) Andy Capp QUOTE (JeffG @ Jan 13 2014, 11:31 AM) It ... Jan 13 2014, 12:50 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) Turin Machine QUOTE (Blake @ Jan 10 2014, 02:10 PM) Yes... Jan 11 2014, 06:13 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) Ron QUOTE (Blake @ Jan 10 2014, 12:38 PM) Tim... Jan 10 2014, 02:07 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) Andy Capp QUOTE (Ron @ Jan 10 2014, 02:07 PM) Our w... Jan 10 2014, 03:25 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) Biker1 QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jan 10 2014, 04:25 PM)... Jan 11 2014, 06:33 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) Andy Capp QUOTE (Biker1 @ Jan 11 2014, 06:33 PM) We... Jan 11 2014, 06:34 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) Biker1 QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jan 11 2014, 07:34 PM)... Jan 11 2014, 06:37 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) Andy Capp QUOTE (Biker1 @ Jan 11 2014, 06:37 PM) I... Jan 11 2014, 06:51 PM motormad People would ignore the limits.
Average speed came... Jan 10 2014, 03:01 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) Blake QUOTE (motormad @ Jan 10 2014, 03:01 PM) ... Jan 10 2014, 03:05 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) motormad QUOTE (Blake @ Jan 10 2014, 03:05 PM) Wel... Jan 10 2014, 03:19 PM JeffG QUOTE (motormad @ Jan 10 2014, 02:04 PM) ... Jan 11 2014, 11:26 AM Simon Kirby For example, here's the Torygraph hurumphing-o... Jan 11 2014, 01:53 PM motormad Most engines are cleaner burning under high loads ... Jan 11 2014, 02:53 PM motormad Just a few points I have.
As Jeff (and I said pre... Jan 13 2014, 03:21 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) Andy Capp QUOTE (motormad @ Jan 13 2014, 03:21 PM) ... Jan 13 2014, 04:04 PM motormad It is right.
With a given volume to work with, ro... Jan 13 2014, 04:57 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) Exhausted QUOTE (motormad @ Jan 13 2014, 04:57 PM) ... Jan 13 2014, 05:17 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) Biker1 QUOTE (Exhausted @ Jan 13 2014, 07:17 PM)... Jan 13 2014, 05:42 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) Simon Kirby QUOTE (Exhausted @ Jan 13 2014, 05:17 PM)... Jan 13 2014, 06:02 PM motormad Yes, much rather the water sat in the middle lane,... Jan 13 2014, 05:39 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) Exhausted QUOTE (motormad @ Jan 13 2014, 05:39 PM) ... Jan 13 2014, 07:45 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) motormad QUOTE (Exhausted @ Jan 13 2014, 07:45 PM)... Jan 13 2014, 09:18 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) blackdog QUOTE (Exhausted @ Jan 13 2014, 07:45 PM)... Jan 13 2014, 10:39 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) motormad QUOTE (blackdog @ Jan 13 2014, 10:39 PM) ... Jan 14 2014, 12:38 AM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) Andy Capp QUOTE (motormad @ Jan 14 2014, 12:38 AM) ... Jan 14 2014, 10:43 AM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) JeffG QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jan 14 2014, 10:43 AM)... Jan 14 2014, 10:50 AM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) motormad QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jan 14 2014, 10:43 AM)... Jan 14 2014, 11:17 AM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) Andy Capp QUOTE (motormad @ Jan 14 2014, 11:17 AM) ... Jan 14 2014, 01:03 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) Exhausted QUOTE (motormad @ Jan 14 2014, 12:38 AM) ... Jan 14 2014, 05:05 PM Simon Kirby One way of packing in more cars while keeping the ... Jan 13 2014, 06:09 PM Andy Capp Here you go ladies...
"One of the measures t... Jan 13 2014, 06:45 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) The Optimist QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jan 13 2014, 06:45 PM)... Jan 14 2014, 04:36 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) Andy Capp QUOTE (The Optimist @ Jan 14 2014, 04:36 ... Jan 14 2014, 05:17 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) Exhausted QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jan 14 2014, 05:17 PM)... Jan 14 2014, 05:28 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) Andy Capp QUOTE (Exhausted @ Jan 14 2014, 05:28 PM)... Jan 14 2014, 05:40 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) MontyPython QUOTE (Exhausted @ Jan 14 2014, 05:28 PM)... Jan 14 2014, 06:32 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) motormad QUOTE (MontyPython @ Jan 14 2014, 06:32 P... Jan 14 2014, 10:05 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) Exhausted QUOTE (motormad @ Jan 14 2014, 10:05 PM) ... Jan 14 2014, 11:05 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) MontyPython QUOTE (Exhausted @ Jan 14 2014, 11:05 PM)... Jan 15 2014, 12:34 AM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) Simon Kirby QUOTE (The Optimist @ Jan 14 2014, 04:36 ... Jan 14 2014, 07:47 PM Exhausted You don't have to beat yourself up MM it isn... Jan 13 2014, 09:51 PM Blake Well, I hope the move comes to Berkshire soon and ... Jan 14 2014, 10:54 AM motormad Ban cows? Jan 14 2014, 01:30 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) On the edge QUOTE (motormad @ Jan 14 2014, 01:30 PM) ... Jan 14 2014, 01:48 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) Andy Capp QUOTE (motormad @ Jan 14 2014, 01:30 PM) ... Jan 14 2014, 03:42 PM motormad Yes, I speed everywhere don't I. In my stupidl... Jan 14 2014, 11:20 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) Exhausted QUOTE (motormad @ Jan 14 2014, 11:20 PM) ... Jan 14 2014, 11:28 PM Strafin If a speed limit isn't in a red circle, it... Jan 16 2014, 07:23 AM JeffG Unless it's the US. My favo(u)rite one: Jan 16 2014, 09:25 AM JeffG Here's another good one: Jan 16 2014, 09:41 AM
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