BAN THEM, AND BAN THEM NOW., Triangular shaped objects around schoolchildren reveals mass panic. Options

[motormad]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-21923218

As try as I might, I've never caused a blood injury by stabbing someone with a Dorito.

Discuss.

[motormad]

But children will be children, OTE. There is a line drawn between violent or abusive behavior (which needs to be repeated over a long period of time) and "being a child" behaviour.

Of which throwing a bit of food is classed as childish behavior. It's not always the parents fault, kids do develop on their own you might be surprised to hear. You can have the best parents in the world and the kid can still turn out bad.

[GMR]

But children will be children, OTE. There is a line drawn between violent or abusive behavior (which needs to be repeated over a long period of time) and "being a child" behaviour.

Out of control behaviour has to start from somewhere. Give kids an inch and they will take a mile. Abusive behaviour starts with minor incidences and once the child believes they've got away with it they push things further.

Of which throwing a bit of food is classed as childish behavior. It's not always the parents fault, kids do develop on their own you might be surprised to hear. You can have the best parents in the world and the kid can still turn out bad.

And how do you know they are the best parents? Just because they look the best from outside doesn't mean they are actually good parents. It also works the other way; kids coming from rough homes can have good and disciplinarian parents. Bad childish behaviour is always somebody's fault; parents, lack of discipline at school or something else; including mental problems.



All children will act "childish" or push the boundaries but it is for authorities, parents, teacher etc to show kids their limits.

[motormad]

Out of control behaviour has to start from somewhere. Give kids an inch and they will take a mile. Abusive behaviour starts with minor incidences and once the child believes they've got away with it they push things further.

It starts from children being children. It's part of growing up. Something that kids often don't have chance to do. Abusive is classed as what? Throwing a bit of food is not really "abusive", it's kids having a foodfight.

And how do you know they are the best parents? Just because they look the best from outside doesn't mean they are actually good parents. It also works the other way; kids coming from rough homes can have good and disciplinarian parents. Bad childish behaviour is always somebody's fault; parents, lack of discipline at school or something else; including mental problems.

It was an example. I didn't mention a specific case did I? I just said, and it's true because I was at school far more recently than you were, Bill Oddy, that a lot of the time, while generally rough parents will produce rough kids, plenty of well heeled parents' children turned into rough kids because of those who they chose to hang around with.
I always acted out in school, not violently but just by being a joker, and it wasn't my parents fault, it was just who I was.

"Bad childish behaviour" as you call it is not always someone's fault, sometimes it's just the kids fault is it? And acting out isn't indicative of mental problems.
This is why people your age can't comment because you haven't seen the school system or how kids are in the last 10 years.

All children will act "childish" or push the boundaries but it is for authorities, parents, teacher etc to show kids their limits.

Agreed, but also up to other kids to show other kids the limits...

[GMR]

It starts from children being children. It's part of growing up. Something that kids often don't have chance to do. Abusive is classed as what? Throwing a bit of food is not really "abusive", it's kids having a foodfight.

That is true, but also being a child is learning discipline, how far one can go, or not go. That is why we have guide lines and we give kids guidlines.

But this incident wasn't just kids having a food fight but an attack on another kids; the food was deliberately thrown to hurt. Kids don't do that unless there is something serious there. We all do stupid things but we had limits.

It was an example. I didn't mention a specific case did I? I just said, and it's true because I was at school far more recently than you were, Bill Oddy, that a lot of the time, while generally rough parents will produce rough kids, plenty of well heeled parents' children turned into rough kids because of those who they chose to hang around with.

And I was using an example to your example.

You may have been at school far more recently than I, but I brought up kids more recently than when you were at school.

As for who kids hang around with; I agree. I am not disputing that but that doesn't change what I said about watching kids and discipline.

I always acted out in school, not violently but just by being a joker, and it wasn't my parents fault, it was just who I was.

I was the same; but that is something different. Kids will be kids and bring out their own identity.

"Bad childish behaviour" as you call it is not always someone's fault, sometimes it's just the kids fault is it? And acting out isn't indicative of mental problems.
This is why people your age can't comment because you haven't seen the school system or how kids are in the last 10 years.

The people of "my age" brought up kids so do know what is happening. As for what is inside kids and what makes them do it. I do agree that some of the problems with kids comes from within, but in those cases they need help... and are usually getting it (hopefully)

Agreed, but also up to other kids to show other kids the limits...

In theory yes.

[motormad]

That is true, but also being a child is learning discipline, how far one can go, or not go. That is why we have guide lines and we give kids guidlines.

But this incident wasn't just kids having a food fight but an attack on another kids; the food was deliberately thrown to hurt. Kids don't do that unless there is something serious there. We all do stupid things but we had limits.

Why not throw the plate, or cutlery. But food? I've in my life thought "YES, I WILL INFLICT PAIN AND SUFFERING BY THROWING THIS PIECE OF CAKE".

And I was using an example to your example.

You may have been at school far more recently than I, but I brought up kids more recently than when you were at school.

As for who kids hang around with; I agree. I am not disputing that but that doesn't change what I said about watching kids and discipline.

Kids are not stupid and can easily fool their parents. The amount of children who smoke weed for example (which I am not saying is right or wrong) and their parents who do not know - Doesn't make them bad parents. Most parents work full time, or as long as they possibly can, and try to maintain their own lives as well as finding time as a couple to do things, as well as bringing up their children; so things like that are missed.

The people of "my age" brought up kids so do know what is happening. As for what is inside kids and what makes them do it. I do agree that some of the problems with kids comes from within, but in those cases they need help... and are usually getting it (hopefully)

It's very different to having a child at school and actually being there and seeing first hand what's going on and how school life is.

[GMR]

Why not throw the plate, or cutlery. But food? I've in my life thought "YES, I WILL INFLICT PAIN AND SUFFERING BY THROWING THIS PIECE OF CAKE".

Good question; but kids don't usually think and grab anything that is it hand. Who said he didn't want to throw a plate but was stopped from doing so or just never thought about it?

Kids are not stupid and can easily fool their parents. The amount of children who smoke weed for example (which I am not saying is right or wrong) and their parents who do not know - Doesn't make them bad parents. Most parents work full time, or as long as they possibly can, and try to maintain their own lives as well as finding time as a couple to do things, as well as bringing up their children; so things like that are missed.

I agree that not all kids are stupid, but there parents, teachers and authority can be. People in society get away with things for a hole host of reasons; lethargy (of authority or parents), stupidity, school or society bureaucracy etc.

It's very different to having a child at school and actually being there and seeing first hand what's going on and how school life is.

I agree to a point but I was a very hands on parent. In junior school I helped in the classroom and other places. When the kids were in high school I was involved; and my kids turned out all right and well disciplined. I am not suggesting that they were angels because no kids are. But I was there to point them in the right direction when things went wrong.

At the end of the day it is about how they turned out and are you happy with how they turned out. I am.

[motormad]

Good question; but kids don't usually think and grab anything that is it hand. Who said he didn't want to throw a plate but was stopped from doing so or just never thought about it?

So you are suggesting if there was a dagger the kid would have thrown that? It was nothing more, in all likely hood, than a little tizzy in which some kid goes "WELL YOU WANTED THIS LAST FLAPJACK SO MUCH YOU CAN HAVE IT MWWHAH" and threw it. If he was stopped from throwing a plate I'm sure the dinner ladies could keep such a lethal projectile as a flapjack at bay.

I agree that not all kids are stupid, but there parents, teachers and authority can be. People in society get away with things for a hole host of reasons; lethargy (of authority or parents), stupidity, school or society bureaucracy etc.

I think it's just fair to say you believe in complete accountability (that being, if something goes wrong it's always someones fault), and I don't think that's always true, especially when it comes to something as complicated as the human mind and social interactions

I agree to a point but I was a very hands on parent. In junior school I helped in the classroom and other places. When the kids were in high school I was involved; and my kids turned out all right and well disciplined. I am not suggesting that they were angels because no kids are. But I was there to point them in the right direction when things went wrong.

Involved how though? I am not debating you were a good or bad parent; you were probably very good, but when you are not there as a parent/helper and the kids are alone at lunch, or they are whispering things in class to each other, a lot of it goes unheard. Parents are not normally allowed in classes, at least not during 2002/2007 when I was at school. During the OFSTED reports all of the idiots and morons in the class shut up for that week, amazing what someone else watching in the room does for the general attitude..
I had very little guidance growing up for a variety of reasons and I too ended up alright and I have no-one to thank for that aside from myself. Yes it's of course helpful if someone is there to guide but generally, without any guidance, a good kid will make the "right" decision and a bad kid would make the "wrong" one.

At the end of the day it is about how they turned out and are you happy with how they turned out. I am.

I agree and if you're happy then that's the main thing

[GMR]

So you are suggesting if there was a dagger the kid would have thrown that? It was nothing more, in all likely hood, than a little tizzy in which some kid goes "WELL YOU WANTED THIS LAST FLAPJACK SO MUCH YOU CAN HAVE IT MWWHAH" and threw it. If he was stopped from throwing a plate I'm sure the dinner ladies could keep such a lethal projectile as a flapjack at bay.

You are surmising as I am. We both are suggesting things to back up our arguments, nothing more, nothing less. Hypothesising is all part of forum life but the truth of the matter is neither of us know what actually happened; we can only draw conclusions by what we've read or what was said.

I think it's just fair to say you believe in complete accountability (that being, if something goes wrong it's always someones fault), and I don't think that's always true, especially when it comes to something as complicated as the human mind and social interactions p

I believe in accountability as near as possible.

Even with the human mind there is always somebody to blame. If you are religious then you can blame God for the individuals faults, if you are atheist then it would be down to your DNA or genes.

Involved how though? I am not debating you were a good or bad parent; you were probably very good, but when you are not there as a parent/helper and the kids are alone at lunch, or they are whispering things in class to each other, a lot of it goes unheard. Parents are not normally allowed in classes, at least not during 2002/2007 when I was at school. During the OFSTED reports all of the idiots and morons in the class shut up for that week, amazing what someone else watching in the room does for the general attitude..

Oh, I don't disagree with you here. We can't know everything as parents or teacher, but what we can do is try to observe, read between the lines and give advice where possible. People that are given good advice and helped where possible usually end up as good rounded kids.

I had very little guidance growing up for a variety of reasons and I too ended up alright and I have no-one to thank for that aside from myself. Yes it's of course helpful if someone is there to guide but generally, without any guidance, a good kid will make the "right" decision and a bad kid would make the "wrong" one.

Yes, you make a good point. There are many kids that have grown up in appalling conditions and with bad authority teachers but ended up good decent kids, while others have grown up in "perfect conditions" (as we see from outside) and have turned out bad. I could hypothesis about this but this isn't the place for that.

I agree and if you're happy then that's the main thing

That is what it boils down to; for all of us.