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Apologise? Apologise for what exactly? |
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Aug 8 2018, 07:02 AM
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Why on earth should Boris Johnson apologise for what he said about the burka?
It covers the wearers face and so is displaying an arrogant rudeness to anyone the wearer needs to communicate with. There is no religious requirement at all to cover the face and in some cases, it's actually symbolic of repression. On top of this, at this time of heightened national security, it is difficult to identify wearers and, just like the full face hoodie, ought to be restricted.
Some seeking to integrate into our community, with cultures and practices very different to those here in the UK might find this disturbing. However, integration is a two way street and arguably, this is one of the existing communities 'lines in the sand'.
Stifling debate as the PM clearly seeks to do is foolhardy and likely to create even more discontent and tension in both communities than there is already.
For me, this continual denial of real debate on crucial matters of difference is far more damaging to democracy than 'fake' news.
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Aug 8 2018, 07:28 AM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Aug 8 2018, 08:02 AM) Why on earth should Boris Johnson apologise for what he said about the burka?
It covers the wearers face and so is displaying an arrogant rudeness to anyone the wearer needs to communicate with. There is no religious requirement at all to cover the face and in some cases, it's actually symbolic of repression. On top of this, at this time of heightened national security, it is difficult to identify wearers and, just like the full face hoodie, ought to be restricted.
Some seeking to integrate into our community, with cultures and practices very different to those here in the UK might find this disturbing. However, integration is a two way street and arguably, this is one of the existing communities 'lines in the sand'.
Stifling debate as the PM clearly seeks to do is foolhardy and likely to create even more discontent and tension in both communities than there is already.
For me, this continual denial of real debate on crucial matters of difference is far more damaging to democracy than 'fake' news. He was deliberately fanning the flames. He knew it would cause offence. If you can’t see it was designed to appeal to the knuckle draggers it can only mean you’re one of them.
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Aug 8 2018, 07:54 AM
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QUOTE (newres @ Aug 8 2018, 08:28 AM) He was deliberately fanning the flames. He knew it would cause offence. If you can’t see it was designed to appeal to the knuckle draggers it can only mean you’re one of them. You don't know that of course, and given that the remarks were in his usual style, it's doubtful that they were designed to cause offence, indeed quite the reverse. What I'm seeing more and more, talking to groups of people throughout the country is the bitter resentment being built up against the governing establishment's failure to address such issues head on. I've met those involved in the administration of justice, education in schools and colleges, as well as commercial management who are also very offended by women refusing to 'show their face' and use it as an example of myriad other failures to properly manage integration. It strikes me, that just like your response, ungrounded attempts to close any even sensible debate is as foolish as it is counter productive. It's sad that Johnson's attempt to lighten the issue is, as usual, misinterpreted. Can you imagine the fury if he'd used even plain language. I'm sorry, but I'd argue that your final paragraph says more about you than me. Intelligent debate isn't about trading insults.
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Aug 8 2018, 09:30 AM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Aug 8 2018, 08:54 AM) You don't know that of course, and given that the remarks were in his usual style, it's doubtful that they were designed to cause offence, indeed quite the reverse.
What I'm seeing more and more, talking to groups of people throughout the country is the bitter resentment being built up against the governing establishment's failure to address such issues head on. I've met those involved in the administration of justice, education in schools and colleges, as well as commercial management who are also very offended by women refusing to 'show their face' and use it as an example of myriad other failures to properly manage integration.
It strikes me, that just like your response, ungrounded attempts to close any even sensible debate is as foolish as it is counter productive. It's sad that Johnson's attempt to lighten the issue is, as usual, misinterpreted. Can you imagine the fury if he'd used even plain language.
I'm sorry, but I'd argue that your final paragraph says more about you than me. Intelligent debate isn't about trading insults. Oh the irony? Is saying people look like pillar boxes and bank robbers intelligent debate or trading insults?
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Aug 8 2018, 10:27 AM
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QUOTE (newres @ Aug 8 2018, 10:30 AM) Oh the irony? Is saying people look like pillar boxes and bank robbers intelligent debate or trading insults? It's what used to be called banter, or chaffing. Johnson was not insulting the wearers, just the style of dress. Just as I find Nurses wearing uniforms in public unacceptable because it's unhygienic.
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Aug 8 2018, 11:51 AM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Aug 8 2018, 11:27 AM) It's what used to be called banter, or chaffing. Johnson was not insulting the wearers, just the style of dress. Just as I find Nurses wearing uniforms in public unacceptable because it's unhygienic. Ridiculous comment. His remarks have caused offence and he's been told to apololgise by both the leader & the chairman of the party. He's deliberately courting the right following his meeting with Bannon.
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Aug 8 2018, 01:02 PM
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QUOTE (newres @ Aug 8 2018, 12:51 PM) Ridiculous comment. His remarks have caused offence and he's been told to apololgise by both the leader & the chairman of the party. He's deliberately courting the right following his meeting with Bannon. What a sad state our politics are today then. You are implying that all MPs must be simply pawns and certainly must upset no one. Do you honestly think David Cameron should apologise for the offensive remarks he made about Nigel Fararge, or Mrs May for being offensive to Jeremy Corbyn? Perhaps you'd like us to follow the EU member states that are introducing prohibitions? Demanding apologies and then even penance for bogus offences is a classic way to divert attention from the real issue. That then festers and gradually erupts with significant consequences. Why are you and your peers so afraid to engage in meaningful debate? QUICK ADD Have just spent time with a Muslim couple I've known for ages, yes, they are incensed by the Johnson issue ..... but mainly by people who aren't Muslim being offended in their behalf! As they said, how can you be offended by something that isn't true. Their religion does not require any women to dress, other modestly, that's essentially covering private parts; the face is not specified. In fact, their view is that the noise being made about this is very unhelpful indeed.
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Aug 8 2018, 03:31 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Aug 8 2018, 02:02 PM) What a sad state our politics are today then. You are implying that all MPs must be simply pawns and certainly must upset no one. Do you honestly think David Cameron should apologise for the offensive remarks he made about Nigel Fararge, or Mrs May for being offensive to Jeremy Corbyn? Perhaps you'd like us to follow the EU member states that are introducing prohibitions?
Demanding apologies and then even penance for bogus offences is a classic way to divert attention from the real issue. That then festers and gradually erupts with significant consequences. Why are you and your peers so afraid to engage in meaningful debate?
QUICK ADD Have just spent time with a Muslim couple I've known for ages, yes, they are incensed by the Johnson issue ..... but mainly by people who aren't Muslim being offended in their behalf! As they said, how can you be offended by something that isn't true. Their religion does not require any women to dress, other modestly, that's essentially covering private parts; the face is not specified. In fact, their view is that the noise being made about this is very unhelpful indeed. And FGM isn't a Muslim thing either but I'll bet the alt right won't be able to separate THAT from being a Muslim. Shall we start making jokes about Hasidic Jews too? Can you see Boris doing that? As I said, he's done that to be divisive. It was no accident. And for that reason alone he's an A R S E.
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Aug 8 2018, 04:27 PM
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QUOTE (newres @ Aug 8 2018, 04:31 PM) And FGM isn't a Muslim thing either but I'll bet the alt right won't be able to separate THAT from being a Muslim.
Shall we start making jokes about Hasidic Jews too? Can you see Boris doing that?
As I said, he's done that to be divisive. It was no accident. And for that reason alone he's an A R S E. The FGM laws are nothing to do with religion. They were put in place to protect women from dangerous mutilation which results in severe disability in later life. Hasidic Jews, Nuns, Air cabin crews, etc.etc. all wear 'different' clothes, but don't cover their faces. That's the issue; again not a religious issue but one where for the proper functioning and safety of our society, an individual's face needs to be seen. However, the most virulent objections to any attempt to stop face covering come only from a religious group. Oddly, this group cannot justify their objection! I agree Boris Johnson's intervention here was no accident. It was a main stream press column he wrote, which doubtless was carefully thought through. It also passed the Newspapers legal team. Yes, it's worth asking why he mentioned it right now, particularly where there is much more obvious low hanging political fruit. Rather than thinking up more insults; a good test would be to think objectively; why? I some how doubt if you'll like the answer.
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Aug 8 2018, 04:56 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Aug 8 2018, 05:27 PM) The FGM laws are nothing to do with religion. They were put in place to protect women from dangerous mutilation which results in severe disability in later life.
Hasidic Jews, Nuns, Air cabin crews, etc.etc. all wear 'different' clothes, but don't cover their faces. That's the issue; again not a religious issue but one where for the proper functioning and safety of our society, an individual's face needs to be seen. However, the most virulent objections to any attempt to stop face covering come only from a religious group. Oddly, this group cannot justify their objection!
I agree Boris Johnson's intervention here was no accident. It was a main stream press column he wrote, which doubtless was carefully thought through. It also passed the Newspapers legal team. Yes, it's worth asking why he mentioned it right now, particularly where there is much more obvious low hanging political fruit. Rather than thinking up more insults; a good test would be to think objectively; why? I some how doubt if you'll like the answer. There’s nothing wrong with the debate. You have your view and that’s fine. I on the other hand am not bothered if someone wants to wear a veil. It’s a debate and there will be differing views. That’s not the issue. Boris’s outburst was deliberately offensive (many Muslims have described it as such) and the talk isn’t about the issue, but about Boris. It’s about keeping his profile up. However, whilst it played well with people like you, most people will see Boris for what he is.
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Aug 8 2018, 05:49 PM
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QUOTE (newres @ Aug 8 2018, 05:56 PM) There’s nothing wrong with the debate. You have your view and that’s fine. I on the other hand am not bothered if someone wants to wear a veil. It’s a debate and there will be differing views. That’s not the issue. Boris’s outburst was deliberately offensive (many Muslims have described it as such) and the talk isn’t about the issue, but about Boris. It’s about keeping his profile up. However, whilst it played well with people like you, most people will see Boris for what he is. People 'like me'? Ah, same as the majority of the UK's population, so thanks for the vote of confidence. I can't see how Muslims would find what Boris Johnson said is offensive. I can find no trace of any religious reason as to why anyone would wear a full face cover in their writings. So, perhaps it's down to deliberate misinterpretation - like the techniques the hate preachers use. No matter what anyone says these days someone will be 'offended' - Cliff Richard wins his libel case, Head of News at BBC 'offended'. Time we all grew up and spoke plainly.
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Aug 8 2018, 06:17 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Aug 8 2018, 06:49 PM) People 'like me'? Ah, same as the majority of the UK's population, so thanks for the vote of confidence.
I can't see how Muslims would find what Boris Johnson said is offensive.
I can find no trace of any religious reason as to why anyone would wear a full face cover in their writings. So, perhaps it's down to deliberate misinterpretation - like the techniques the hate preachers use.
No matter what anyone says these days someone will be 'offended' - Cliff Richard wins his libel case, Head of News at BBC 'offended'. Time we all grew up and spoke plainly. He didn't speak plainly. He was deliberately insulting. Am I ok to use the term "rag head", or instead of looks like a letter box, how about looks like a monkey?
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Aug 8 2018, 08:26 PM
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QUOTE (newres @ Aug 8 2018, 07:17 PM) He didn't speak plainly. He was deliberately insulting.
Am I ok to use the term "rag head", or instead of looks like a letter box, how about looks like a monkey? How about #gammon. You lot seem to think that is hilarious to describe middle aged white people probably in ill health due to high blood pressure and stressful jobs. But I guess thats Ok with you and is....funny. People usung that are just hypocrites. PS..I couldn't give a sh1t if you called me that personally.
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On the edge Apologise? Apologise for what exactly? Aug 8 2018, 07:02 AM TallDarkAndHandsome QUOTE (newres @ Aug 8 2018, 04:31 PM) And... Aug 8 2018, 04:26 PM On the edge QUOTE (newres @ Aug 8 2018, 07:17 PM) He ... Aug 8 2018, 06:57 PM SirWilliam I see the baying hordes are calling for his blood ... Aug 8 2018, 07:34 AM On the edge QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Aug 8 2018, 08:34 AM)... Aug 8 2018, 08:01 AM SirWilliam QUOTE (On the edge @ Aug 8 2018, 09:01 AM... Aug 8 2018, 12:10 PM spartacus The luvvies in the BBC may be baying for his blood... Aug 8 2018, 10:46 PM x2lls QUOTE (spartacus @ Aug 8 2018, 11:46 PM) ... Aug 8 2018, 11:15 PM newres QUOTE (spartacus @ Aug 8 2018, 11:46 PM) ... Aug 9 2018, 05:01 AM spartacus QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Aug 8 2018, 09... Aug 8 2018, 11:14 PM spartacus QUOTE (x2lls @ Aug 9 2018, 12:15 AM) Gets... Aug 8 2018, 11:44 PM TallDarkAndHandsome QUOTE (spartacus @ Aug 9 2018, 12:44 AM) ... Aug 9 2018, 05:02 AM newres QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Aug 9 2018, 06... Aug 9 2018, 07:22 AM x2lls If you can call Catholic nuns "penguins... Aug 9 2018, 09:38 AM SirWilliam QUOTE (x2lls @ Aug 9 2018, 10:38 AM) If y... Aug 9 2018, 01:16 PM newres QUOTE (x2lls @ Aug 9 2018, 10:38 AM) If y... Aug 9 2018, 03:56 PM x2lls QUOTE (newres @ Aug 9 2018, 04:56 PM) Whe... Aug 9 2018, 04:01 PM newres QUOTE (x2lls @ Aug 9 2018, 05:01 PM) The ... Aug 9 2018, 04:39 PM On the edge QUOTE (newres @ Aug 9 2018, 05:39 PM) Wel... Aug 9 2018, 06:48 PM TallDarkAndHandsome QUOTE (newres @ Aug 9 2018, 05:39 PM) Wel... Aug 9 2018, 08:55 PM newres QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Aug 9 2018, 09... Aug 10 2018, 12:37 AM On the edge QUOTE (newres @ Aug 10 2018, 01:37 AM) Sh... Aug 10 2018, 06:43 AM newres QUOTE (On the edge @ Aug 10 2018, 07:43 A... Aug 10 2018, 11:31 AM Strafin In my opinion the problem with Boris is that he is... Aug 9 2018, 12:21 PM On the edge QUOTE (Strafin @ Aug 9 2018, 01:21 PM) In... Aug 9 2018, 12:46 PM newres QUOTE (On the edge @ Aug 9 2018, 01:46 PM... Aug 9 2018, 03:58 PM On the edge QUOTE (newres @ Aug 9 2018, 04:58 PM) How... Aug 9 2018, 06:44 PM newres QUOTE (On the edge @ Aug 9 2018, 07:44 PM... Aug 9 2018, 08:18 PM On the edge QUOTE (newres @ Aug 9 2018, 09:18 PM) Wha... Aug 9 2018, 09:02 PM x2lls QUOTE (Strafin @ Aug 9 2018, 01:21 PM) In... Aug 9 2018, 02:31 PM Strafin I don't think it is messenger shooting. I thin... Aug 9 2018, 03:43 PM Turin Machine Things to note;
It's not a religious issue in... Aug 9 2018, 05:37 PM Turin Machine Allegedly; The reason women must cover themselves ... Aug 9 2018, 05:44 PM On the edge QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Aug 9 2018, 06:44 ... Aug 9 2018, 06:50 PM x2lls He makes a lot of valid points, again.
https://ww... Aug 9 2018, 10:49 PM Biker1 I have to remove my crash helmet when I get fuel a... Aug 10 2018, 02:57 AM TallDarkAndHandsome QUOTE (Biker1 @ Aug 10 2018, 03:57 AM) I ... Aug 10 2018, 06:13 AM Strafin Thing is though, if you ban face coverings you wil... Aug 10 2018, 08:35 AM newres QUOTE (Strafin @ Aug 10 2018, 09:35 AM) T... Aug 10 2018, 11:32 AM TallDarkAndHandsome QUOTE (newres @ Aug 10 2018, 12:32 PM) An... Aug 10 2018, 06:59 PM newres QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Aug 10 2018, 07... Aug 11 2018, 06:16 AM je suis Charlie QUOTE (newres @ Aug 11 2018, 07:16 AM) Ba... Aug 12 2018, 11:11 PM Strafin QUOTE (newres @ Aug 10 2018, 12:32 PM) An... Aug 13 2018, 08:59 AM Turin Machine QUOTE (Strafin @ Aug 10 2018, 09:35 AM) T... Aug 10 2018, 10:56 PM newres QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Aug 10 2018, 11:56... Aug 11 2018, 06:14 AM x2lls QUOTE (newres @ Aug 11 2018, 07:14 AM) Mu... Aug 11 2018, 09:11 PM je suis Charlie QUOTE (newres @ Aug 11 2018, 07:14 AM) Mu... Aug 12 2018, 11:09 PM Strafin QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Aug 13 2018, 12... Aug 13 2018, 09:03 AM SirWilliam QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Aug 10 2018, 11:56... Aug 11 2018, 10:50 AM newres QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Aug 11 2018, 11:50 AM... Aug 11 2018, 06:20 PM SirWilliam QUOTE (newres @ Aug 11 2018, 07:20 PM) Ho... Aug 11 2018, 07:19 PM TallDarkAndHandsome QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Aug 11 2018, 08:19 PM... Aug 11 2018, 07:33 PM newres QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Aug 11 2018, 08... Aug 11 2018, 07:35 PM TallDarkAndHandsome QUOTE (newres @ Aug 11 2018, 08:35 PM) Ma... Aug 11 2018, 07:42 PM TallDarkAndHandsome One more thing.... People like newres saw to the e... Aug 11 2018, 07:54 PM Biker1 QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Aug 11 2018, 08... Aug 14 2018, 08:15 AM newres QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Aug 11 2018, 08:19 PM... Aug 11 2018, 07:33 PM x2lls QUOTE (newres @ Aug 11 2018, 07:20 PM) Ho... Aug 11 2018, 09:01 PM newres QUOTE (x2lls @ Aug 11 2018, 10:01 PM) Whe... Aug 12 2018, 05:26 AM On the edge QUOTE (newres @ Aug 12 2018, 06:26 AM) Wh... Aug 12 2018, 07:08 AM TallDarkAndHandsome QUOTE (On the edge @ Aug 12 2018, 08:08 A... Aug 12 2018, 08:20 AM newres QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Aug 12 2018, 09... Aug 13 2018, 09:15 AM On the edge QUOTE (newres @ Aug 13 2018, 10:15 AM) Th... Aug 13 2018, 12:43 PM je suis Charlie QUOTE (newres @ Aug 13 2018, 10:15 AM) Th... Aug 13 2018, 07:19 PM Strafin QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Aug 13 2018, 08... Aug 14 2018, 07:23 AM x2lls QUOTE (Strafin @ Aug 14 2018, 08:23 AM) W... Aug 14 2018, 06:36 PM Strafin QUOTE (x2lls @ Aug 14 2018, 07:36 PM) las... Aug 15 2018, 09:09 AM x2lls QUOTE (SirWilliam @ Aug 11 2018, 11:50 AM... Aug 11 2018, 08:55 PM x2lls QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Aug 10 2018, 11:56... Aug 11 2018, 09:04 PM On the edge The operative word is 'choose', some Musli... Aug 11 2018, 07:57 PM TallDarkAndHandsome QUOTE (On the edge @ Aug 11 2018, 08:57 P... Aug 11 2018, 08:06 PM x2lls Hey Newres, check out the comments.
You will see t... Aug 11 2018, 09:42 PM SirWilliam This debate seems to concentrate round the freedom... Aug 12 2018, 08:36 AM x2lls ^^^^^ Previous two posts, very well said indeed. Aug 12 2018, 11:51 AM x2lls haha!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13Yy3VY... Aug 12 2018, 08:16 PM x2lls From within.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/... Aug 13 2018, 06:05 PM je suis Charlie QUOTE (x2lls @ Aug 13 2018, 07:05 PM) Fro... Aug 13 2018, 07:18 PM SirWilliam QUOTE (x2lls @ Aug 13 2018, 07:05 PM) Fro... Aug 13 2018, 07:22 PM newres QUOTE (x2lls @ Aug 13 2018, 07:05 PM) Fro... Aug 14 2018, 10:14 AM SirWilliam QUOTE (newres @ Aug 14 2018, 11:14 AM) I ... Aug 14 2018, 02:12 PM x2lls QUOTE (newres @ Aug 14 2018, 11:14 AM) I ... Aug 14 2018, 06:39 PM newres QUOTE (x2lls @ Aug 14 2018, 07:39 PM) Nic... Aug 14 2018, 07:03 PM TallDarkAndHandsome QUOTE (newres @ Aug 14 2018, 08:03 PM) It... Aug 15 2018, 05:31 AM newres QUOTE (TallDarkAndHandsome @ Aug 15 2018, 06... Aug 15 2018, 06:13 AM
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