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Corbyn, This is democracy!!!! |
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Jul 13 2016, 12:26 PM
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QUOTE (Berkshirelad @ Jul 13 2016, 12:21 PM) And you need to remember that those 32 have also changed the rules on membership to avoid another stuffing of the Party with Corbyn supporters at £3 apiece And mischievous Tories exploiting the weakness in the system too.
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Jul 13 2016, 09:35 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Jul 13 2016, 01:26 PM) And mischievous Tories exploiting the weakness in the system too. It's possible, but I think you should assume good faith until you have good reason not to. I can't speak with any great experience but I believe the great majority of Labour members who, like me, are supporting Corbyn, do so because they support his politics for it's unapologetic social justice, and support Corbyn because of the way he goes about politics. For sure, if you prefer your politics selfish and your politicians shiny then Conservative is always going to be your vote, but there are rather a lot of people who find Corbyn's Labour very attractive.
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Right an injustice - give Simon Kirby his allotment back!
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Jul 18 2016, 04:15 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jul 13 2016, 10:35 PM) It's possible, but I think you should assume good faith until you have good reason not to. I can't speak with any great experience but I believe the great majority of Labour members who, like me, are supporting Corbyn, do so because they support his politics for it's unapologetic social justice, and support Corbyn because of the way he goes about politics. For sure, if you prefer your politics selfish and your politicians shiny then Conservative is always going to be your vote, but there are rather a lot of people who find Corbyn's Labour very attractive. Of course there are a lot of people who find Corbyn's politics attractive; there is not argument there. However, not enough for him to form a government. The Conservative are always going to be the politics of choice as long as the Labour keep moving left. Blair learnt that lesson and brought them back to the centre and won three elections.
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Jul 18 2016, 06:17 PM
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QUOTE (GMR @ Jul 18 2016, 05:15 PM) Of course there are a lot of people who find Corbyn's politics attractive; there is not argument there. However, not enough for him to form a government.
The Conservative are always going to be the politics of choice as long as the Labour keep moving left. Blair learnt that lesson and brought them back to the centre and won three elections. We've had the argument before - I'm not interested in winning elections, I'm interested in perusing social justice, and I'm not going to abandon those principles of social justice just because they're not broadly popular. You're entirely right, Conservatism always has the advantage - it plays to self-interest and a natural deference to authority and the establishment, and the best I can hope for is to challenge that orthodoxy and make the argument that acting equitably and collectively is the moral thing to do even though it means those with the advantage giving up some of what they have. It's a mistake however to think that power is the only way to affect change, and a mistake too to think that politics is Westminster, because social activism is always available to the powerless and politics starts at home.
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Right an injustice - give Simon Kirby his allotment back!
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Jul 18 2016, 06:37 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jul 18 2016, 07:17 PM) We've had the argument before - I'm not interested in winning elections, I'm interested in perusing social justice, and I'm not going to abandon those principles of social justice just because they're not broadly popular. You're entirely right, Conservatism always has the advantage - it plays to self-interest and a natural deference to authority and the establishment, and the best I can hope for is to challenge that orthodoxy and make the argument that acting equitably and collectively is the moral thing to do even though it means those with the advantage giving up some of what they have. It's a mistake however to think that power is the only way to affect change, and a mistake too to think that politics is Westminster, because social activism is always available to the powerless and politics starts at home. The trouble with your comments is that not even the Labour MPs believe that. The People across the country (who can get Labour into power) don't believe it. Nevertheless, you are entitled to your opinions; as the neo-Nazi's, Lib-Dems etc are entitled to their views (no matter how far they are out of sync with the rest of the country they are). I also agree that there are other ways to change things; the Poll tax is a good example. But they are few and far between. Putting all that to one side; If Labour MPs don't believe in him, if traditional Labour voters (outside those that have signed up) don't believe in Corbyn then all you've got is your principles, and of course a continuous Tory Government. I am sure the Tory government and other parties (who hope to pick up disenchanted Labour voters) support your principles wholeheartedly. At least there won't be any changes in the near future.
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Jul 18 2016, 07:47 PM
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QUOTE (GMR @ Jul 18 2016, 07:37 PM) The trouble with your comments is that not even the Labour MPs believe that. The People across the country (who can get Labour into power) don't believe it. Nevertheless, you are entitled to your opinions; as the neo-Nazi's, Lib-Dems etc are entitled to their views (no matter how far they are out of sync with the rest of the country they are).
I also agree that there are other ways to change things; the Pole tax is a good example. But they are few and far between. Putting all that to one side; If Labour MPs don't believe in him, if traditional Labour voters (outside those that have signed up) don't believe in Corbyn then all you've got is your principles, and of course a continuous Tory Government. I am sure the Tory government and other parties (who hope to pick up disenchanted Labour voters) support your principles wholeheartedly. At least there won't be any changes in the near future. The trouble with the Labour MPs, and I suspect a significant minority of the old-guard and party grandees, is that they don't believe in the values which Corbyn has awoken in the majority of the Labour Party membership. I've heard the argument about a loss of support in the Labour heartlands and I don't accept it. Yes, I accept that Labour has lost support, but I reject the notion that Labour values of social justice are in any way defined by the views of the people who have traditionally benefited from that social justice. Specifically I've heard the argument that Labour, being the party of the working man, should take up whatever opinion that working man would advance, no matter how unjust and objectionable. That argument is bogus - Labour was never the party of the working man - Labour is the party of social justice, and it's in the nature of the thing that the beneficiary of that social justice has oftentimes been the labouring poor, but if "traditional" Labour voters are abandoning Labour then that's a tragedy for social justice but it's no argument to change what Labour's about.
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Right an injustice - give Simon Kirby his allotment back!
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Jul 19 2016, 10:06 AM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jul 18 2016, 08:47 PM) The trouble with the Labour MPs, and I suspect a significant minority of the old-guard and party grandees, is that they don't believe in the values which Corbyn has awoken in the majority of the Labour Party membership. Well, I can't argue with that. Unfortunately his "values" are minority values. QUOTE I've heard the argument about a loss of support in the Labour heartlands and I don't accept it. Yes, I accept that Labour has lost support, but I reject the notion that Labour values of social justice are in any way defined by the views of the people who have traditionally benefited from that social justice. Specifically I've heard the argument that Labour, being the party of the working man, should take up whatever opinion that working man would advance, no matter how unjust and objectionable. That argument is bogus - Labour was never the party of the working man - Labour is the party of social justice, and it's in the nature of the thing that the beneficiary of that social justice has oftentimes been the labouring poor, but if "traditional" Labour voters are abandoning Labour then that's a tragedy for social justice but it's no argument to change what Labour's about. Social justice means different things to different people. You could argue that the Tories and mostly all parties believe in social justice. But saying that, parties must adapt to the future otherwise they will die. Look at the Tory history; they changed and adapted to modern society. What Labour wants (under Corbyn) is to take the party back to days gone-by. Corbyn's politics were annihilated in the 70s/ 80s. Remember the "longest suicide note in history"? He wants to bring that back. A good example of this was/ is the Trident option. It helped destroy them then, and it is destroying them now (Corbyn lost by 117 votes). Values are ok, but they have to be meaningful and achievable (especially in government). The BNP have values; you can argue everybody has values. But you can only achieve those values by being in Government, otherwise you are just heckling from the outside, watching the world go by. I agree we need to change the world, but that can only be achieved through Government or mass revolt (and Corbyn hasn't got mass revolt; only his party is revolting, and that is against him).
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Jul 19 2016, 10:19 AM
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QUOTE (GMR @ Jul 19 2016, 11:06 AM) Well, I can't argue with that. Unfortunately his "values" are minority values. Not in the Labour party, which will re-elect him in September. British politics needs an alternative to Thatcherism - at the moment Corbyn, SNP and the Greens are it. Perhaps Labour will be unable to win power with these policies, but they were unable to win power with New Labour Thatcherism even after an unpopular coalition. Would Eagle or Smith win the next election? I doubt it. Would they do better than Corbyn? We can never know, but I doubt it.
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Jul 18 2016, 07:47 PM GMR QUOTE (blackdog @ Jul 19 2016, 11:19 AM) ... Jul 19 2016, 01:37 PM Simon Kirby QUOTE (GMR @ Jul 19 2016, 02:37 PM) I thi... Jul 19 2016, 02:28 PM GMR QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jul 19 2016, 03:28 P... Jul 20 2016, 03:28 PM blackdog QUOTE (GMR @ Jul 19 2016, 02:37 PM) But w... Jul 19 2016, 08:58 PM TallDarkAndHandsome QUOTE (blackdog @ Jul 19 2016, 09:58 PM) ... Jul 19 2016, 09:09 PM On the edge It isn't just about winning votes. The Blair ... Jul 19 2016, 06:18 PM GMR QUOTE (On the edge @ Jul 19 2016, 07:18 P... Jul 20 2016, 03:37 PM On the edge QUOTE (GMR @ Jul 20 2016, 04:37 PM) I dis... Jul 20 2016, 05:46 PM GMR QUOTE (On the edge @ Jul 20 2016, 06:46 P... Jul 20 2016, 06:35 PM Simon Kirby QUOTE (GMR @ Jul 20 2016, 04:37 PM) Now t... Jul 20 2016, 07:20 PM Simon Kirby QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jul 20 2016, 08:20 P... Jul 20 2016, 07:29 PM GMR QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Jul 20 2016, 08:29 P... Jul 20 2016, 07:42 PM Simon Kirby QUOTE (GMR @ Jul 20 2016, 08:42 PM) You c... 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