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Bringing back Clause 4, Whats in it for us? |
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Aug 9 2015, 06:28 PM
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You don't have to go back too far and Labour were the opposition party round here. Who says they can't do it again?
There are hints (shock / horror) that a good few would like to reinstate a revised Clause 4! Would that actually help? Well, on this very forum there have been calls to take the railways back into public ownership; simply because the bogus markets don't seem capable of delivering the service we want at costs we can afford. Then take utilities, we might actually be better off with the distribution networks at least being in public hands. Rural broadband might then be more than a dream.
It all depends on the model. In my view, the mistake last time was to equate public ownership with centralisation. This time there are suggestions it should be localised. So far so good. The only hesitation I'd have is our very own local 'public management' experience. Step,forward NTC! However, if words like cooperative and agency were added to the mix - who knows, a brighter future?
Anyway, right or wrong, at least Labour are trying to come up with a real and different vision; not just a different shade of blue and a mine is bigger than yours approach to policy!
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Know your place!
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Aug 19 2015, 05:01 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Aug 19 2015, 04:52 PM) ![*](style_images/NWN/post_snapback.gif) Labour are not yet 'tearing themselves apart'; that is an exaggeration. they are simply finding their feet. The Tories did exactly this 18 years ago when they last lost the election. Many commentators back then believed that the Tories had lost their raison d'etre too. After several stupid choices of leader, they eventually regrouped and at the same time the Labour party wobbled with their (Tory supported) war in Iraq and the banking crisis which so easily could have fallen on the Tories watch. People need to realise that the budget deficit at the time of Labour coming into power in '97 was similar to the level when the banking crisis struck. I think they are in the process of tearing themselves apart. Even if Corbyn doesn't get elected they will either go for Cooper or Burnham. Burnham has said that he will have Corbyn in his shadow cabinet; two conflicting views. It won't work and the public won't accept it. If Cooper wins she will have to first address Scotland and then the boundary changes. Also; of Corbyn doesn't win, then it will leave many dissatisfied members who will do everything to unsettle Cooper. And then there is the unions. A melting pot ready to explode.
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Aug 19 2015, 05:34 PM
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QUOTE (GMR @ Aug 19 2015, 06:01 PM) ![*](style_images/NWN/post_snapback.gif) I think they are in the process of tearing themselves apart. Even if Corbyn doesn't get elected they will either go for Cooper or Burnham. Burnham has said that he will have Corbyn in his shadow cabinet; two conflicting views. It won't work and the public won't accept it. If Cooper wins she will have to first address Scotland and then the boundary changes. Also; of Corbyn doesn't win, then it will leave many dissatisfied members who will do everything to unsettle Cooper. And then there is the unions. A melting pot ready to explode. I don't see it like that; this is all just a part of the process. The same thing happened and will happen to the Tories. Don't forget Cameron has vowed to stand down after this term. He will increasingly become a lame-duck president.
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Aug 19 2015, 06:32 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Aug 19 2015, 06:34 PM) ![*](style_images/NWN/post_snapback.gif) I don't see it like that; this is all just a part of the process. The same thing happened and will happen to the Tories. Don't forget Cameron has vowed to stand down after this term. He will increasingly become a lame-duck president. You might not see it that way, but I do. And even if Cameron becomes a lame-duck president he will be against lame-duck opposition. Lame-duck in the sense that they have no chance of forming any sort of government whomever they elect; because of Scotland and boundary changes. None of the contestants have personality/ charisma or even anything new to stay. Milliband lost because of a reason, but listening to the other contestants they haven't learnt from that defeat. Funnily enough - and I don't like her - but going by what Harriet Harman has said she seems to be the only one to have learnt a lesson from their defeat.
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Posts in this topic
On the edge Bringing back Clause 4 Aug 9 2015, 06:28 PM motormad What's clause 4? Aug 9 2015, 06:39 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) Exhausted QUOTE (motormad @ Aug 9 2015, 07:39 PM) W... Aug 9 2015, 07:53 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) motormad QUOTE (Exhausted @ Aug 9 2015, 08:53 PM) ... Aug 10 2015, 10:15 AM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) On the edge QUOTE (motormad @ Aug 10 2015, 11:15 AM) ... Aug 10 2015, 12:23 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) Andy Capp QUOTE (motormad @ Aug 10 2015, 11:15 AM) ... Aug 10 2015, 12:36 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) motormad QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Aug 10 2015, 01:36 PM)... Aug 10 2015, 03:54 PM blackdog It seems to me that the left wing of the Labour pa... Aug 9 2015, 10:02 PM On the edge Good point! Your final question is exactly th... Aug 10 2015, 08:47 AM On the edge That's not saying 'public ownership' u... Aug 10 2015, 03:13 PM CrackerJack Isn't Clause 4 where all Labour Party members,... Aug 10 2015, 06:57 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) Andy Capp QUOTE (CrackerJack @ Aug 10 2015, 07:57 P... Aug 10 2015, 07:37 PM CrackerJack QUOTE (CrackerJack @ Aug 10 2015, 07:57 P... Aug 10 2015, 08:12 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) Andy Capp QUOTE (CrackerJack @ Aug 10 2015, 09:12 P... Aug 10 2015, 08:17 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) je suis Charlie QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Aug 10 2015, 09:17 PM)... Aug 10 2015, 09:27 PM CrackerJack QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Aug 10 2015, 09:17 PM)... Aug 10 2015, 08:28 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) Andy Capp QUOTE (CrackerJack @ Aug 10 2015, 09:28 P... Aug 10 2015, 08:41 PM GMR A political party should be looking towards the fu... Aug 11 2015, 04:36 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) Andy Capp QUOTE (GMR @ Aug 11 2015, 05:36 PM) Claus... Aug 11 2015, 06:35 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) GMR QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Aug 11 2015, 07:35 PM)... Aug 12 2015, 03:39 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) On the edge QUOTE (GMR @ Aug 11 2015, 05:36 PM) A p... Aug 11 2015, 07:46 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) Andy Capp QUOTE (On the edge @ Aug 11 2015, 08:46 P... Aug 11 2015, 08:04 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) GMR QUOTE (On the edge @ Aug 11 2015, 08:46 P... Aug 12 2015, 03:41 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) Andy Capp Oops, post error! Aug 12 2015, 05:09 PM CrackerJack Somewhere deep in the new Labour Party Headquarter... Aug 11 2015, 05:49 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) On the edge QUOTE (CrackerJack @ Aug 11 2015, 06:49 P... Aug 11 2015, 07:55 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) Andy Capp QUOTE (CrackerJack @ Aug 11 2015, 06:49 P... Aug 11 2015, 08:12 PM Andy Capp I remember when New Labour last got into power, pe... Aug 11 2015, 06:26 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) GMR QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Aug 11 2015, 07:26 PM)... Aug 12 2015, 03:37 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) x2lls QUOTE (GMR @ Aug 12 2015, 04:37 PM) Yes, ... Aug 12 2015, 08:21 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) Andy Capp QUOTE (x2lls @ Aug 12 2015, 09:21 PM) Wel... Aug 12 2015, 11:24 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) GMR QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Aug 13 2015, 12:24 AM)... Aug 14 2015, 04:01 PM Strafin I like the idea. I think the government and opposi... Aug 13 2015, 09:58 AM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) GMR QUOTE (Strafin @ Aug 13 2015, 10:58 AM) I... Aug 14 2015, 04:08 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) Simon Kirby QUOTE (Strafin @ Aug 13 2015, 10:58 AM) I... Aug 16 2015, 06:20 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) GMR QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Aug 16 2015, 07:20 P... Aug 17 2015, 03:42 PM On the edge I think that's quite right. In fact, the bigg... Aug 14 2015, 07:22 AM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) GMR QUOTE (On the edge @ Aug 14 2015, 08:22 A... Aug 14 2015, 04:13 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) On the edge QUOTE (GMR @ Aug 14 2015, 05:13 PM) That ... Aug 14 2015, 07:15 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) GMR QUOTE (On the edge @ Aug 14 2015, 08:15 P... Aug 16 2015, 03:50 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) On the edge QUOTE (GMR @ Aug 16 2015, 04:50 PM) It mi... Aug 16 2015, 06:21 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) GMR QUOTE (On the edge @ Aug 16 2015, 07:21 P... Aug 17 2015, 03:44 PM Andy Capp I think the future is coalition, or at very least ... Aug 14 2015, 07:38 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) Cognosco QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Aug 14 2015, 08:38 PM)... Aug 14 2015, 08:34 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) GMR QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Aug 14 2015, 08:38 PM)... Aug 16 2015, 03:51 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) On the edge QUOTE (GMR @ Aug 16 2015, 04:51 PM) And d... Aug 16 2015, 06:11 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) Andy Capp QUOTE (GMR @ Aug 16 2015, 04:51 PM) And d... Aug 16 2015, 08:28 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) GMR QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Aug 16 2015, 09:28 PM)... Aug 17 2015, 03:45 PM On the edge I suppose that as we already have a coalition of p... Aug 15 2015, 08:16 AM blackdog I too have a hankering for a genuine Labour party,... Aug 16 2015, 08:53 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) GMR QUOTE (blackdog @ Aug 16 2015, 09:53 PM) ... Aug 17 2015, 03:48 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) blackdog QUOTE (GMR @ Aug 17 2015, 04:48 PM) As I ... Aug 17 2015, 05:02 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) Andy Capp QUOTE (blackdog @ Aug 17 2015, 06:02 PM) ... Aug 17 2015, 05:17 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) blackdog QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Aug 17 2015, 06:17 PM)... Aug 17 2015, 05:39 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) On the edge QUOTE (blackdog @ Aug 17 2015, 06:39 PM) ... Aug 17 2015, 05:42 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) GMR QUOTE (blackdog @ Aug 17 2015, 06:39 PM) ... Aug 17 2015, 06:17 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) Andy Capp QUOTE (GMR @ Aug 17 2015, 07:17 PM) If we... Aug 17 2015, 08:57 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) user23 QUOTE (GMR @ Aug 17 2015, 07:17 PM) It wa... Aug 17 2015, 09:02 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) GMR QUOTE (user23 @ Aug 17 2015, 10:02 PM) Th... Aug 17 2015, 10:15 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) GMR QUOTE (blackdog @ Aug 17 2015, 06:02 PM) ... Aug 17 2015, 06:13 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) blackdog QUOTE (GMR @ Aug 17 2015, 07:13 PM) Who i... Aug 17 2015, 11:44 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) GMR QUOTE (blackdog @ Aug 18 2015, 12:44 AM) ... Aug 18 2015, 07:58 AM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) blackdog QUOTE (GMR @ Aug 18 2015, 08:58 AM) If th... Aug 18 2015, 06:04 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) Simon Kirby QUOTE (GMR @ Aug 17 2015, 04:48 PM) As I ... Aug 17 2015, 07:53 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) GMR QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Aug 17 2015, 08:53 P... Aug 18 2015, 07:54 AM On the edge Personally, I don't give a **** if we aren... Aug 17 2015, 07:38 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) Simon Kirby QUOTE (On the edge @ Aug 17 2015, 08:38 P... Aug 17 2015, 08:00 PM GMR Just a matter of interest; I wouldn’t trust Andy B... Aug 18 2015, 08:05 AM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) On the edge QUOTE (GMR @ Aug 18 2015, 09:05 AM) Just ... Aug 18 2015, 08:44 AM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) GMR QUOTE (On the edge @ Aug 18 2015, 09:44 A... Aug 18 2015, 09:43 AM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) Andy Capp QUOTE (GMR @ Aug 18 2015, 10:43 AM) The t... Aug 18 2015, 11:22 AM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) GMR QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Aug 18 2015, 12:22 PM)... Aug 18 2015, 11:45 AM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) On the edge QUOTE (GMR @ Aug 18 2015, 12:45 PM) Isn’t... Aug 18 2015, 12:45 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) GMR QUOTE (On the edge @ Aug 18 2015, 01:45 P... Aug 18 2015, 01:53 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) On the edge QUOTE (GMR @ Aug 18 2015, 02:53 PM) It is... Aug 18 2015, 03:15 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) GMR QUOTE (On the edge @ Aug 18 2015, 04:15 P... Aug 18 2015, 03:34 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) Andy Capp QUOTE (GMR @ Aug 18 2015, 04:34 PM) Nobod... Aug 18 2015, 04:01 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) GMR QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Aug 18 2015, 05:01 PM)... Aug 18 2015, 04:10 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) Turin Machine QUOTE (GMR @ Aug 18 2015, 10:43 AM) I wou... Aug 18 2015, 01:51 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) GMR QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Aug 18 2015, 02:51... Aug 18 2015, 01:54 PM Turin Machine Now my eyes hurt! Mr Shoutey. Aug 18 2015, 03:39 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) GMR QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Aug 18 2015, 04:39... Aug 18 2015, 04:08 PM Petra Dear all,
I’ve read this thread with great intere... Aug 19 2015, 08:54 AM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) On the edge QUOTE (Petra @ Aug 19 2015, 09:54 AM) Dea... Aug 19 2015, 12:24 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) GMR QUOTE (Petra @ Aug 19 2015, 09:54 AM) Dea... Aug 19 2015, 03:20 PM Andy Capp Labour are unelectable. The Tories are OK so-long... Aug 19 2015, 11:56 AM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) GMR QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Aug 19 2015, 12:56 PM)... Aug 19 2015, 03:25 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) Andy Capp QUOTE (GMR @ Aug 19 2015, 07:32 PM) You m... Aug 19 2015, 06:54 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) GMR QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Aug 19 2015, 07:54 PM)... Aug 19 2015, 07:06 PM blackdog I found David Blunkett's recent comments inter... Aug 19 2015, 04:06 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) GMR QUOTE (blackdog @ Aug 19 2015, 05:06 PM) ... Aug 19 2015, 04:57 PM blackdog Corbyn is the only candidate with a hope of winnin... Aug 19 2015, 11:03 PM![|](style_images/NWN/to_down_pipe.gif) GMR QUOTE (blackdog @ Aug 20 2015, 12:03 AM) ... Aug 20 2015, 04:00 PM On the edge Corbin is the only candidate that would offer a ch... Aug 20 2015, 05:31 PM![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) GMR QUOTE (On the edge @ Aug 20 2015, 06:31 P... Aug 20 2015, 06:36 PM![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) ![](style_images/NWN/spacer.gif) blackdog QUOTE (GMR @ Aug 20 2015, 07:36 PM) I dou... Aug 20 2015, 07:10 PM
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