I travel into London periodically and always try and make late morning appointments. Travelling after 1000 hrs with a railcard gives a one day Travelcard (NBY to PAD return with bus/tube) for £16.50 currently. The only thing is that the ticket is not valid for a return on fast trains departing PAD between 1630 and 1930 hrs or thereabouts.

Read the thread properly. The context mentioned railways, the suggested outcome didn't.

We don't consider transport provision as a whole. In the case of rail, the investment cycle inevitably runs beyond the period of government. So politicians are somewhat loathe to spend on something they might not see delivered. What's happened on the Underground is a good outline - Chris Woolmer's book describes this in great detail.

You could argue that the Railways actually stop innovation. If they did not exist and petrol prices continue to increase how would we get about the Country? I'm sure someone would come up with a greener, quicker, more efficient and cheaper solution in the long run. It's called progress. Also - we are best at innovation with our backs against the wall. Look at the massive forward steps in innovation taken in World Wars in the past. It's just my humble opinion.

The problem with trains is that they are not a sustainable method of transport. They are inherently flawed (like Susan Boyle) that is, say you want to go to Park Way (I know no-one would choose to go there, it's just hypothetical), and you didn't drive, you'd have to take a train into Newbury and then walk the mile or so to Park Way.
They you have to do your shopping and walk back the mile or so while carrying all of your bags of shopping (and the plastic bags chop your fingers off)

Trains never take you to where you want to go, they take you to the town of the place where you want to go, sometimes not even that! It's like an aeroplane just not as good. Basically it's like flying Ryanair

Unless prices have changed, it used to be about £3.20 for a return to Newbury during peak times. When I did have to train into work when I was 16 (so 4 years ago!!) I remember I'd get a seat probably 1 in 3 days, normally being squashed by an oversize lady sitting next to me - and even then being a person of slightly higher than normal height, found myself physically unable to "sit" in the seat. Forget "lack of legroom" - there wasn't any! I'd have to sit at a 45 degree angle with my legs where another person would be. I had to take the train to my job in Basingstoke last year, so Thatcham - Reading West - train swap - Basingstoke. It was horrible. Both days I had to stand the ENTIRE way and only on one of the two days did I get a seat on a return train. Not only that but I fell over some old biddies bicycle when the train lurched violently on the rails. Most miserable days of the year.

To drive into Newbury and back home outside of rush hour costs me about £1.20 in diesel. I don't need to pay parking as I work in Newbury and park in my work car park. 3 minute walk. In rush hour (so for example driving to work) it probably costs me about £2.50 due to the stop-start nature of my journey. Plus I am guaranteed a seat and don't need to sit next to poor people who smell. Plus I can play my music as loud as I like and have people laugh at my orange winter wheels.

I don't think trains should get tax-payer support as it is a business model. They should get grants, for using new technology such as electric/diesel trainsetc, as Newbury/Reading buses do however they should not be funded or "supported" by the state. If the business model fails there are 2 explanations, either it's managed poorly, in which case a new group will take over the projects or the very core of the business is flawed (because trains are crap) and people don't use them in general.

Trains have their place, for example travelling into London or other towns with good public transport links, Tubes, buses, etc - however going into small to medium sized towns, they are pointless if you have the ability to drive. If they cut down the commuter trains and had more of the longer distance trains at a fair price (as in not £150 to go to Exeter) then they might make a few more pennies.

The 'solution' resides in reducing the need to travel.

Too true. If we're talking about state subsidy for rail then we also have to talk about state subsidy for road. Franchise the road network, scrap car tax and fuel duty and let RoadCo charge by use, and then road and rail are free to compete on equal terms.

They already are - significantly, seeing as they are state owned!

If all this is true (and I am not arguing that point) then why do so many people use them, hence the overcrowding??

Yes. Did my comment suggest otherwise?

Suspect that's right - there is an interesting balance! OK, new thinking might cost us in the interim, but in all probability you are right - there has to be a better, greener way. Might seem a joke and far fetched, but some of the 1950's futuristic cartoon features might, just might provide an answer. 'Individual 'pods' that transport you swiftly to wherever you want to go... possible today using computer aided direction systems and magnetic levitation... Keep thinking - we need the ideas.

ONE potential option. The hair shirt/ride bike/work from home approach simply isn't sustainable or over practical. Smoothing transport peaks is another - being mooted by TfL right now; a return of workman's fares.

Sorry Xjay - you haven't met my sister! Susan Boyle CD and she travels from Swindon to go to Park Way.... even I think she's odd!

Yes they did slightly - but I stand corrected.

OK. I agree, roads are supported to a huge degree by the tax payer. IMHO there's a good argument for that being right in that roads are a common good, but it's nonsense to talk about the state support for the railways without also considering the state support of road transport. I don't know, but it's entirely possible that rail would compete favourably with road if the state support was pulled from both and fares were deregulated.

Difference is with the road transport, we pay road tax, fuel duty tax plus VAT on all of that. The roads are made by councils, governments etc where as trains are private. No comparison.

That's today's model - which makes comparison very difficult indeed. As to ownership, arguably the Roads are one of the last nationalised industries - the Government had to take over the turnpike trusts (private) when they started to fail. Starting with a clean sheet of paper - the comparitor costs / benefits are quite interesting. Take an example which affects us. A34 say Oxford to Southampton hundreds of lorries all needing 'hundreds' of engines and drivers - whereas one train on the closed railway would have replaced good number - with one biggish engine and one driver.

The problem with trains comes true here completely. Trains can only go to one location - Southampton train station. How do the goods unload themselves from there and reach Sainsbury?s which I'd guess is not built directly adjacent to Southampton train station (at least I hope not or my point is a bit moot)

With roads, you can go where you want, when you want. Unless you get randomly pulled over for a spot check by the police. In which case you are slightly delayed but no worry, if you want to pull over and admire the scenery, you can. Spot of tea? No bother - unfortunately with trains you go back and forth at a pre-set speed and have timetables to adhere to.

Trains are still used for transport of certain goods, mainly to major construction sites which, conveniently, often have mini rail terminals which go directly into the building site itself...they work, because they are practical in that situation. Like all things there's a time and a place and for the majority of goods, sugar, clothes, and food, they are poor due to logistics

Do do do, do do do, do do do, do do do, that's logistics.

No they are not in the true sense of the word.
Network Rail who own and maintain the infrastructure (track, signalling, stations etc.) are government owned and the TOC's are heavily subsidised by the taxpayer.
It is the DFT who decide many things on the railway such as rolling stock allocation etc. so, unlike the other former nationalised industries such as energy and telecomms, the government and the taxpayer still has a large part to play in the railways.

I've noticed that container ships have a similar problem. How do you think they manage?