I hope you're right on the vote, but surprised you think turnout will be so low.
I would like to think that something that as important as this, which has received so much political and media attention would invoke a turnout of at least 75%.

[*]European peace has not been guaranteed by the existence of the EU, but by NATO. The bitter recriminations between nations over the increasingly likely collapse of the Eurozone is more ike to cause war, as is the EU's foolhardiness over Ukraine etc.

The peace that is referred to in this argument is the prevention of France v Germany round 4. The EU has worked perfectly in this. NATO has done little but keep the Cod War going for as long as possible.

[*]The scare-mongering about the 'Jungle' moving to Dover is just that. The agreement in place is an Anglo-French bi-lateral agreement and absolutely nothing to do with the EU; and to establish another jungle, they would first need to get through Border Control.

The jungle is unlikely to appear in Kent, but the illegal immigrants would. Currently the French keep them in France, we would not be able to stop them until they were at sea or in England - and would have to deal with them in the UK.

[*]It is a myth that you need a trade agreement in order to trade. We trade very well with the US despite having no formal agreement. The German motor
manufacturers will not give up their UK market and have enough power to force the German government to veto a EU retaliatory action on trade

It is indeed a myth - but UK products would be more expensive in the EU than at present owning to the imposition of EU tarrifs (not hugely perhaps 5% or so - but it would impact on the already poor competitiveness of many British goods.

[*]The EU's control of VAT rates is an insult. The reason for the 'tampon feud' is that the UK government cannot remove the VAT on sanitary towels without the agreement of all EU member states

You will be delighted to hear that part of Cameron's deal with the EU is to increase member states' freedom to charge or not charge VAT - the Tampon tax will go. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-35834142

[*]Finally, and very personally, I live in a constitutional monarchy and resent being addressed as a citizen when I have no wish to be one. Just too 1984!

You are a citizen of the UK whether we are in or out of the EU - get used to it Citizen.

This is interesting.

Number of people expected to be living per square kilometre in 2015 - by country
• England - 419
• Holland - 408
• Wales - 258
• Germany - 226
• Italy - 205
• N. Ireland - 130
• Poland - 123
• Portugal - 116
• France - 105
• Romania - 89
• Bulgaria - 66
• Scotland - 40

Apparently only Malta has a higher number of people per sq.Km. than us in Europe.

Racist or non-racist, benevolent or not, how much more can this country take before it breaks?
There must be a point somewhere surely?
In the context of in or out, will it make any difference to the is issue?
No one can seem to say for certain, as with other issues.
Finger in the air or toss a coin??

NATO intervened in the Bosnian War and the 'Cod' War helped bring down the Iron Curtain.

I believe the 'Keeping peace' argument is a cheap argument as I believe the peace has been kept for several reasons which includes EU, NATO and IT. To say it is down to one factor is false.


How does Brexit or Remain change the independent agreement?

Where do those figures come from as they don't look right, besides our sad economy relies in part on immigration and being in or out is not likely to change immigration much.

Immigration. We need some yes. But how much? I get on trains these days and Im the only English speaker. Not saying it is wrong. Just a fact. Some people want to live in a Country which is predominantly English speaking and COE. Is that racist? Some would argue it was....

I think the biggest untruth is the statement that says 'we know there are problems; but we can only change things if we stay'. We've been in since the mid 70s and what's ever changed? Sure, we've been given a few concessions, most of which are meaningless.
So for me, the institution itself is beyond repair. As most big business is the American multi national corporate model these days, it's really only World trade that Is of any significance. In reality, the EU is about as relevant as the House of Lords, but not as useful.

I think it's still too far out to call yet; the 'vote' makes its mind up just days before the ballot.

I'm also not convinced there will be a second ballot; we are more likely to go down the 'associate member' route. We'll still keep Commissioners for ceremonial purposes...

Sorry about the 'Cod' - but you got the idea. The Cold War may have brought down the Iron Curtain, but it also put it up in the first place. Franco-German issues were the key to three European wars, the EU was not the only reason they didn't go for it again, but it went further than keeping the peace, it made the two enemies the closest allies in Europe.


Ask the French, will they want to retain/renew the agreement which creates them problems? I can't see what incentive they would have to keep it going.

Well worth watching; Brexit The Movie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMxfAkxfQ0

The Cold War may therefore have been a better option than what might have otherwise been. Better jaw jaw than war war.


What one do they have now? As far as I can see it is a non argument.

Allies may be, but close? Hardly! Much of what's wrong with the European administration is down to the standoff between German and French attitudes. The expensive and crass stupidity of regular Brussels / Strasbourg administrative swap is just one example. Like the LibDim/Tory coalition, it's simply a marriage of convenience and nothing more.

In reality, the EU (EEC) was born as the mechanism to ensure that the new post war German State could grow and exist without French obstructionism. Yes, it did that perhaps, but now it's had its day; what purpose does it now serve?

World trade should be the free market we are striving for; a third party collective simply complicates and confuses matters. The EU is time expired and no longer serves its purpose.

PCC on side of Brexit:

Our PCC in today's National Papers eg

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/670325/Or...ms-police-chief

So it looks like Dave's scare tactics will win the day.
He will go down in history.
In 10 years Blair will have a better rep.

https://www.facebook.com/leaveeuofficial/vi...75/?pnref=story

Rent a liar?



https://www.facebook.com/100003662834496/vi...15593328572754/

Blair was awful on the Marr show today. Possibility the most discredited politician in the world with no answers.😠

Cos like most Labour politicians, he's a ****.

Almost desperation! They've also wheeled out John Major to give us his sage advice!

There was a very good programme on Radio 4 early Saturday evening. Sadly, I suspect it had a very small audience.

However, the contributors were a couple of business people, one against, one for, a female for MP (whose name I didn't catch) and a Swiss investment banker.

The against businessman and the Swiss banker ran rings round the other two, who just ended up totally lost. The Swiss banker had the last word, which was go it, you'll be like us, much better off.

Key point, if you are in business and can't cope with the trading rules imposed by any nation states and Europe isn't that different, you don't deserve to be in business; how do you think multi nationals cope?

I didn't see Blair's performsnce as that bad; he was only really asked a couple of questions. He balked at the question of seeing the report on his war FUBAR.