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Europe - In or Out, Straw Poll for Forumisters |
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Feb 28 2016, 03:18 PM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Feb 28 2016, 02:35 PM) I'd certainly agree with cutting back The EU administrators in exactly the same way as I'd live to see ours cut right back. In my book, we should have been campaigning for that as members, with other members from day one. It does actually have a fair amount of support from other Countries, notably Germany. Odd isn't it, our 'outers' never seem to keen on killing 'jobs for the boys' in Uk. Just like the other issue Blackdog mentions about VAT, the odd twists on that. Do we really want to go back to good old purchase tax? Now there really was an unfair tax with even more oddities. What would we really loose if we started to think of ourselves as Europeans, who happen to live in the English region; is that really so bad? Arguably, that's the nub. Same for me. I see very little genuine protest at the big-state busy-work, and that's a real shame because a lightweight pan-European forum is the very thing we need to promote peace and understanding. Creating a single European market takes absolutely nothing at all, it's actually the default position if states would just stop imposing taxes and duties on imports/exports, and I really strongly object to being part of a European Union that only grants trading rights to members who pay their protection money - it's abusive, and the only winners are the parasites that work the con. This for me is what needs reforming, and it's wretched to me to see the UK leaving Europe and isolating ourselves when we should be building bridges.
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Right an injustice - give Simon Kirby his allotment back!
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Feb 28 2016, 03:25 PM
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QUOTE (blackdog @ Feb 28 2016, 11:12 AM) The costs issue is a big one to Out supporters - they make much of our sending £50 million a day to Europe as if it all goes to fund the Commission. What they never mention is that the UK Government spends over £2 billion a day and that our spend on the EU is a tiny proportion (0.25%) of what is spent in our name and on our behalf. That's an awful argument - £50 million a day is still £50 million day, and if it's being spent of pointless busy-work and vanity projects then that needs to stop.
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Right an injustice - give Simon Kirby his allotment back!
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Feb 28 2016, 03:56 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Feb 28 2016, 03:25 PM) That's an awful argument - £50 million a day is still £50 million day, and if it's being spent of pointless busy-work and vanity projects then that needs to stop. 50 million would likely give nurses a pay-rise, or perhaps save a good many Citizen's Advice Bureaus from cutting back (but the filthy Tories, and their supporters, don't want those busy bodies about anyway; as is the case with social housing).
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Feb 28 2016, 04:37 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Feb 28 2016, 03:56 PM) 50 million would likely give nurses a pay-rise, or perhaps save a good many Citizen's Advice Bureaus from cutting back (but the filthy Tories, and their supporters, don't want those busy bodies about anyway; as is the case with social housing). And everyone needs flagpoles remember.
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Right an injustice - give Simon Kirby his allotment back!
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Feb 28 2016, 05:53 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Feb 24 2016, 07:52 AM) And which specific pieces of European legislation are making life so intolerable for you? How about this trivia, The Alternative Investment Fund Managers Regulations 2013, which are calculated to cost the economy £1.5billion a year without giving us a penny in return, and the Information and Consultation of Employees Regulations 2004, which costs industry £41million a year with no measurable financial benefit whatsoever. Lots more where that came from!
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Feb 28 2016, 06:02 PM
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QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Feb 28 2016, 05:53 PM) How about this trivia,
The Alternative Investment Fund Managers Regulations 2013, which are calculated to cost the economy £1.5billion a year without giving us a penny in return, and the Information and Consultation of Employees Regulations 2004, which costs industry £41million a year with no measurable financial benefit whatsoever. Lots more where that came from! I'm not quite sure how these costs are calculated. In fact, from what I understand, both actually give a measure of protection. The second, in particular, is actually something I've always thought absolutely necessary. Of course, the old UK Factory Acts cost the economy, because employers had to shell out safeguarding machinery etc! Be careful what you wish for!
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Know your place!
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Feb 28 2016, 06:18 PM
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QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Feb 28 2016, 05:53 PM) How about this trivia,
The Alternative Investment Fund Managers Regulations 2013, which are calculated to cost the economy £1.5billion a year without giving us a penny in return, and the Information and Consultation of Employees Regulations 2004, which costs industry £41million a year with no measurable financial benefit whatsoever. Lots more where that came from! And is this why you're voting to leave the EU, or is it just something you read about in GQ magazine and are posting here to buttress your substantive reasons? Edit: Sorry, I see you lifted your opinion from the Mirror this time. It's always good to see where these opinions are coming from. For example, the Mirror piece you lifted comes from Open Europe, an anti-European conglomeration of business interests who don't like the cost that European legislation is having on their businesses. Here's more from the piece: QUOTE (Open Europe) Now, the think tank Open Europe has totted up the cost to the UK economy of the most burdensome EU laws. It comes to a staggering £27.4billion a year. Among the costliest are the Working Time Directive, which costs £4.1billion a year It's the Working Time Directive that mandates a reasonable amount of annual holiday for employees so that we have a half-decent chance of maintaining some kind of work-life balance and not being slaves to our employers. Obviously it's not going to be easy for these Captains of Industry just to come out with their whinge that paid holiday costs them profits because it'll make them sound like some Dickensian Workhouse proprietor, but with a little guile it's not too difficult for them to drip the notion into the heads of their working-class schlubs that the legislation that is giving them tolerable industrial health, safety and welfare is in some way hateful, and this piece in the Mirror is a peach.
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Right an injustice - give Simon Kirby his allotment back!
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Feb 28 2016, 08:45 PM
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QUOTE (Cognosco @ Feb 28 2016, 07:57 PM) The problem for the average person is to find facts and figures to help them decide in or out that is not tainted by our insidious politicians, media Barons, and financial fat cats? Well said C!
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Know your place!
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Feb 28 2016, 08:51 PM
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QUOTE (Cognosco @ Feb 28 2016, 07:57 PM) The problem for the average person is to find facts and figures to help them decide in or out that is not tainted by our insidious politicians, media Barons, and financial fat cats? Quite so. Take the opinion piece from Open Europe: QUOTE (Open Europe) Among the costliest are the Working Time Directive, which costs £4.1billion a year £4.1Billion is obviously a lot of money so it certainly looks as though the Working Time Directive is, as Open Europe confidently bellows, a "a burdensome EU law". But hang on, there are 30 Million people in work in the UK, so the claimed cost to industry is £136 per worker, and that's more or less a single extra day's holiday - not really such a burdensome EU law then is it. So yes, it's difficult getting information on which to make your own mind up about Europe.
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Right an injustice - give Simon Kirby his allotment back!
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Feb 28 2016, 09:29 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Feb 28 2016, 08:51 PM) Quite so. Take the opinion piece from Open Europe: £4.1Billion is obviously a lot of money so it certainly looks as though the Working Time Directive is, as Open Europe confidently bellows, a "a burdensome EU law". But hang on, there are 30 Million people in work in the UK, so the claimed cost to industry is £136 per worker, and that's more or less a single extra day's holiday - not really such a burdensome EU law then is it. So yes, it's difficult getting information on which to make your own mind up about Europe. Absolutely! Yes, we thought it would be a cost; that is until we saw the reduction in reportable accidents and the reduction in fulfilment error. Of course, those savings don't get fed back so aren't taken into account.
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Know your place!
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Feb 28 2016, 10:39 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Feb 28 2016, 03:25 PM) That's an awful argument - £50 million a day is still £50 million day, and if it's being spent of pointless busy-work and vanity projects then that needs to stop. But is it? Or is it being spent promoting economic growth in Eurpoe's poorer regions - like Wales and Tyneside? The UK gets £4.5 billion in such aid, I suspect poorer countries get more.
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Feb 28 2016, 10:48 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Feb 28 2016, 03:56 PM) 50 million would likely give nurses a pay-rise, or perhaps save a good many Citizen's Advice Bureaus from cutting back (but the filthy Tories, and their supporters, don't want those busy bodies about anyway; as is the case with social housing). Do you really think that the current government would spend it this way? Their natural inclination would be to simply not spend it and thus cut the deficit. They will only spend it if they think they need to buy some votes - when economic prudence instantly goes out of the window. And would the money exist? There is a good chance that government income would fall in the short term by as much as the result of reduced economic activity.
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Mar 3 2016, 11:01 PM
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QUOTE (Andy Capp @ Mar 3 2016, 08:53 PM) The latest NWN NewburyToday data:
Remain 56% Leave 36% I haven't made my mind up yet 6% I won't be voting 1%
This is what I think will play out in the election. I wouldn't disagree with that.
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Know your place!
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