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Europe - In or Out, Straw Poll for Forumisters |
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Feb 27 2016, 09:54 AM
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QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Feb 27 2016, 01:40 AM) The European Union is run by unelected, unaccountable elites whose power is vast. They often bring in legislation that has not been voted on in our national parliament, yet supercedes our own laws that do pass through such democratic processes. All EU legislation has to be enacted by the UK Parliament and does not supersede UK law, it has equal status not higher. The unelected, unaccountable elites are the equivalent of our Civil Service - the source of most UK legislation. All EU laws have to be approved by the European Parliament in a democratic process. The British problem with the EU is our xenophobic issue with the concept that WE might actually include Frenchmen, Germans and Poles.
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Feb 27 2016, 11:18 AM
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QUOTE (blackdog @ Feb 27 2016, 09:54 AM) The British problem with the EU is our xenophobic issue with the concept that WE might actually include Frenchmen, Germans and Poles. That's certainly what it's looking like to me.
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Right an injustice - give Simon Kirby his allotment back!
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Feb 27 2016, 12:27 PM
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QUOTE (Blake @ Feb 27 2016, 08:57 AM) We in Britain stand for the roll back of the state. By contrast, the EU cannot get enough. I don't think that is even remotely true, we appear to be completely happy with an over-blown self-serving state, and it's something I object to most strongly, and I'd happily start by culling the Town Council apparatchiks, but yes, this is also one of my major objections to the EU. QUOTE (Blake @ Feb 27 2016, 08:57 AM) Well, most conspicuously, we have lost control of who we can and can't let in. And who would you let in? QUOTE (Blake @ Feb 27 2016, 08:57 AM) We have lost the ability to conduct bilateral trade agreements that better suit British interests. You're going to have to show how Blighty is losing out here as it's not obvious to me that we're disadvantaged by EU membership which I figure gives us a better bargaining position, unless you're saying that we lose out as against the French and Germans or whatever, and I'd like to see where specifically you think we're losing. Personally I think it's a tyranny that states impose trade restrictions, much like a protection racket, and for me the model to aim for is a world without trade boarders, and the EU is a positive obstacle to this. QUOTE (Blake @ Feb 27 2016, 08:57 AM) We can no longer control certain taxes. Are you talking about VAT, or do you have something else in mind? I'd like to get rid of VAT, it's a pointless expense collecting several different taxes and managing VAT is an administrative overhead that business doesn't need, so yes, I agree with you here.
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Right an injustice - give Simon Kirby his allotment back!
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Feb 27 2016, 01:28 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Feb 27 2016, 11:18 AM) That's certainly what it's looking like to me. Yes, well it would, wouldn't it. Everything does.
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Feb 27 2016, 02:18 PM
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QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Feb 27 2016, 01:26 PM) The EU is arguably a drain on the British economy. A huge amount of money given to the EU is allocated to bureaucracy and wasteful spending such as the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP). In 2006, a whopping 45% EU spending went towards the CAP, To put this in perspective, that's almost half EU spending allocated towards an industry that employs only 5% EU citizens and generates 1.6% GDP But that isn't the purpose of the CAP, although it is a divisive policy. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11216061
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Feb 27 2016, 05:15 PM
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QUOTE (Turin Machine @ Feb 27 2016, 01:26 PM) The EU is arguably a drain on the British economy. A huge amount of money given to the EU is allocated to bureaucracy and wasteful spending such as the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP). In 2006, a whopping 45% EU spending went towards the CAP, To put this in perspective, that's almost half EU spending allocated towards an industry that employs only 5% EU citizens and generates 1.6% GDP I agree that the CAP is bent, and the very best that can be said about it is that it's considerably less bent than what went before it. However, do you have much confidence that a Tory government will leave British agriculture to fend for itself in a free market if we leave the EU? - it's a pretty good working definition of Conservatism to think of it as the party of the landed rich.
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Right an injustice - give Simon Kirby his allotment back!
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Feb 27 2016, 07:55 PM
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QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Feb 27 2016, 07:27 PM) The EU itself has changed from a confident Common Market to a tired, increasingly fragmented superstate, bickering about debts so huge that they will never be repaid - the Greek debt burden works out to be around £22,000 for every man, woman and child in the country. Ye Gods - that's almost as much as ours!
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Feb 27 2016, 11:00 PM
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QUOTE (blackdog @ Feb 27 2016, 07:55 PM) Ye Gods - that's almost as much as ours! Per-capita national debt is pretty much the same for Greece and the UK at around £23.5k, and likewise for Germany. It's some £43k for the USA, so whatever point JSC was trying to illustrate with this factoid is lost on me.
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Right an injustice - give Simon Kirby his allotment back!
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Feb 27 2016, 11:47 PM
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QUOTE (Simon Kirby @ Feb 27 2016, 11:00 PM) Per-capita national debt is pretty much the same for Greece and the UK at around £23.5k, and likewise for Germany. It's some £43k for the USA, so whatever point JSC was trying to illustrate with this factoid is lost on me. But then most things are.
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Feb 27 2016, 11:53 PM
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Since the UK joined the European Economic Community in 1973, and had a referendum about our membership in 1975, the global economy has been transformed out of all recognition. First Japan and later China and India have become economic powerhouses. Changes in technology have shrunk the planet. Globalisation means that Europe is no longer the centre of the world. "The World Trade Organization has brought down tariff rates around the world," the Spectator noted in a piece called "Ten Myths About Brexit". "Even if we didn't sign a free-trade deal with the EU, we would have to pay, at most, £7.5 billion a year in tariffs for access to its markets. That's well below our current membership fee." So, win win.
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Feb 28 2016, 12:42 AM
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QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Feb 27 2016, 11:53 PM) Since the UK joined the European Economic Community in 1973, and had a referendum about our membership in 1975, the global economy has been transformed out of all recognition. First Japan and later China and India have become economic powerhouses. Changes in technology have shrunk the planet. Globalisation means that Europe is no longer the centre of the world. "The World Trade Organization has brought down tariff rates around the world," the Spectator noted in a piece called "Ten Myths About Brexit". "Even if we didn't sign a free-trade deal with the EU, we would have to pay, at most, £7.5 billion a year in tariffs for access to its markets. That's well below our current membership fee." So, win win. Seems we currently pay about £8.5 billlion to the EU (well we pay £13bn and get £4.5bn back in support for farmers, poorer regions etc). So the saving could be as little as £1 billion? 0.13% of Government spending. Is that worth the risk?
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Feb 28 2016, 07:15 AM
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QUOTE (blackdog @ Feb 28 2016, 12:42 AM) Seems we currently pay about £8.5 billlion to the EU (well we pay £13bn and get £4.5bn back in support for farmers, poorer regions etc).
So the saving could be as little as £1 billion? 0.13% of Government spending.
Is that worth the risk? I suppose the 'out' argument would say that at least we would say where 4.5m would be spent and for the rest, it's simply duplicating the cost of government we already have. However, if we really look at how good 'we' are at determining where money should be spent on our own), the counter argument does make much sense, as I think you've mentioned before! So, then, another way of looking at these apparently huge fees would be to see what we could trim out from our own administration; arguably that's the duplication. As for control, EU is a democracy and our vote just as valid and frankly just as effective.
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Know your place!
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Feb 28 2016, 07:44 AM
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QUOTE (je suis Charlie @ Feb 27 2016, 11:53 PM) Since the UK joined the European Economic Community in 1973, and had a referendum about our membership in 1975, the global economy has been transformed out of all recognition. First Japan and later China and India have become economic powerhouses. Changes in technology have shrunk the planet. Globalisation means that Europe is no longer the centre of the world. "The World Trade Organization has brought down tariff rates around the world," the Spectator noted in a piece called "Ten Myths About Brexit". "Even if we didn't sign a free-trade deal with the EU, we would have to pay, at most, £7.5 billion a year in tariffs for access to its markets. That's well below our current membership fee." So, win win. You lifted this wholesale from GQ Magazine. Did it escape you that Tony Parsons writes fiction? Do you have any of your own thoughts on the matter?
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Right an injustice - give Simon Kirby his allotment back!
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Feb 28 2016, 08:12 AM
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QUOTE (On the edge @ Feb 28 2016, 07:15 AM) I suppose the 'out' argument would say that at least we would say where 4.5m would be spent and for the rest, it's simply duplicating the cost of government we already have. However, if we really look at how good 'we' are at determining where money should be spent on our own), the counter argument does make much sense, as I think you've mentioned before! So, then, another way of looking at these apparently huge fees would be to see what we could trim out from our own administration; arguably that's the duplication. As for control, EU is a democracy and our vote just as valid and frankly just as effective. I'm more than happy to ditch the European administrators, and would happily shed some of our own domestic stat functionaries too (a proper bonfire of the vanities) but it's the isolationism of the Little Englanders that's really putting me off this option - we could for example continue to fund the economic regeneration of Eastern Europe after we leave the EU, but the reality will be that the Johnson government won't enen support the development of the English Regions, and that power and spending will be ever more concentrated in the conservative heartlands of the Thames Valley and Shire Counties, and the discussion will soon turn to discouraging internal economic migration.
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Right an injustice - give Simon Kirby his allotment back!
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