Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: Exhausted Jan 16 2013, 10:44 PM

What a revelation that Tesco have been selling burgers with a high percentage of horse meat. If I were French, I might find this acceptable but when something is sold in the UK as a Beefburger then that's what the public should get, not a Horseburger. Happy to say that we don't shop there or at Iceland who also were a bit guilty of the same thing.

Can we trust the supermarkets when one of the majors stoop to such tricks. They said they didn't know but it was interesting to hear in the report that the animal product came from Europe but through a manufacturer in the UK. I'm reassured by the fact that the product was not harmful to the Tesco customers but.........

Posted by: x2lls Jan 16 2013, 11:02 PM

How is something in a report, that is 'interesting', proof that they were lying?
Are you saying that all supermarkets should have a lab to test EVERYTHING that they sell?
Be realistic. If they didn't know, then it certainly was no trick, as you put it. If Tesco's were pulling a fast one, then how come there were a lot of outlets involved. It was a SUPPLIER.

Posted by: spartacus Jan 16 2013, 11:10 PM

My son's been eating these cheap burgers for years and it's not affected him at all.

He's 12 hands high now

Posted by: x2lls Jan 16 2013, 11:22 PM

If you think the burgers are a problem, you should try the meatballs, they're the dogs bollox!

Posted by: Penelope Jan 16 2013, 11:23 PM

I think someone may be sending me death threats.

Woke up this morning with a Tesco burger on my pillow.

Posted by: Penelope Jan 16 2013, 11:26 PM

I had some burgers from tesco for my tea last night....

I still have a bit between my teeth.

Posted by: x2lls Jan 16 2013, 11:28 PM

With all the news about Tesco products, I went to the fridge to check my burgers, aaaaannndddd they're off!

Posted by: x2lls Jan 16 2013, 11:31 PM

[attachment=152:JK.jpg]

Posted by: Penelope Jan 16 2013, 11:32 PM

I was truly shocked to hear Tesco burgers contained horsemeat, I didn't think they contained any meat at all.

Posted by: x2lls Jan 16 2013, 11:52 PM

Tesco Value burgers, giving a whole new meaning to "I'm so hungry I could eat a horse"

Posted by: Dodgys smarter brother. Jan 17 2013, 12:03 AM

Unexpected DNA in the bagging area...


Next time they ask you.... "do you want anything on that"? just say "yeah, a fiver each way"

Posted by: motormad Jan 17 2013, 10:36 AM

Yeah stealing jokes on Facebook is not funny.




I hope the Burger is in a stable condition.

On a more serious note I couldn't really care. It's meat and I doubt you would even tell the difference in a taste test and it's probably not any worse for you.

Posted by: lordtup Jan 17 2013, 10:37 AM

Just wish to comment on the wonderfully tongue in cheek take on this non story . Anyone who thinks that a supermarket burger contains only beef must be on a controlled substance . Apart from the vegetarian agenda ,horse meat is universally accepted along with mutton . Pig , cow being exempt on religious grounds . Do the great unwashed think that a race horse ends it's days frolicking in a west country paddock ? Truth is we are carnivorous and providing any slaughtering is done in a humane fashion then bon appetite .

Posted by: dannyboy Jan 17 2013, 10:41 AM

it isn't horse meat, but animal protein in the burgers that has come from rendered down horses. You need to add animal protein to help bind the beef slurry that burgers are made from together.

All that 'ham' that is sold in supermarkets ( any supermarket ) including the 'joints' & 'gammons' contains the wording 'reformed from pork' or similar. They stick the 'meat' together using animal protein......

and those plump chicken breasts - plump cos they are pumped full of water....trouble is the cell walls begin to collapse if you pump too much in so to make the meat stronger you add animal protein....

Posted by: x2lls Jan 17 2013, 10:58 AM

And you of course are a comic writer, who has never ever transcribed!
We do that, whether by speech or the written word.

Posted by: JeffG Jan 17 2013, 11:32 AM

When we lived for a while in Assen in the north of the Netherlands, there was a horse butcher in one of the shopping streets. I've also heard that during the war, horse meat was knowingly eaten in this country due to the shortages of everything else.

People avoid horse meat in this country on ethical grounds, not because it's not good for you.

Posted by: dannyboy Jan 17 2013, 11:42 AM

I was in Seoul the other week & we went to this ....

Posted by: motormad Jan 17 2013, 11:54 AM

Yet people happily eat cute fluffy little bunny wabbits?
The hypocrisy of some people is simply amazing. If I were running the suppliers to Tesco I would simply tell people to either suck it up or buy something else. I honestly do not see the problem.. meat is ultimately meat and comes from a living animal.
Better than turning the horse into superglue.

Posted by: Andy Capp Jan 17 2013, 12:04 PM

The bigger problem is trust.

Allegedly, Tesco et al. believed they were receiving an item that had been agreed, but might have been sent something else. The fact it might be from a horse, is not the issue, but whether agreements have been broke, and also whether Tesco et al. have stringent checking process in place to ensure what they sell is what is meant to be sold.

For me, the use of halal meat in supermarkets is of far more concern than whether something came from a horse.

Posted by: motormad Jan 17 2013, 12:11 PM

I suppose that is between Tesco and the Supplier, I do not see why some people are saying "Never shopping at Tesco again" or similar comments.
Especially cheap value burgers, chicken etc, it's well reported they do not always come from the best source.

Posted by: JeffG Jan 17 2013, 12:26 PM

There's an old saying: you get what you pay for. If you want to buy value goods, then that's up to you. (Yes, I know some people do not have a choice, and that's why their diets are poor.)

But there is also the Trades Descriptions Act - if something is sold as beef, then it has to be beef.

Actually I just looked that up: Apparently a Beef Burger must contain a minimum of 62% beef. A Beef Economy Burger must contain a minimum of 47% beef.

Though I don't see how Corned beef can contain a minimum of 120% beef! http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/cgi-bin/glos/bus1item.cgi?file=*badv604-1001.txt Does anyone understand that table?

Posted by: lordtup Jan 17 2013, 12:47 PM

You are quite correct in saying that a lot of horse meat was consumed during the last war, ( showing my age now ), and quite honestly we would have eaten anything as my overriding memory was being continuously hungry .
The problem is that we have become so removed from the reality of food production that we tend to look at the eye pleasing packaging ,not the contents .
Apart from the taste, there is no difference between a butchered cow and a horse . They have both been bred for our use and the more we recognise and empathise with the process the better the welfare and the quality .

Posted by: Andy Capp Jan 17 2013, 12:48 PM

Warning: GMR please ignore my link: http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/Kent/Analyst%20reports/cornedbeef.htm

"When meat is cured or cooked, it loses water, and hence the apparent meat content increases. A statement “minimum meat content 120%” therefore means “Prepared using a minimum of 120g of fresh meat per 100g of finished product”.

Posted by: John C Jan 17 2013, 02:30 PM

Having lived in mainland Europe as long as its handled correctly so as to be fit for human consumption I have no problems with eating horse.

Posted by: NORTHENDER Jan 17 2013, 03:31 PM

I lived and worked in France for quite awhile and ate tons of the stuff. I think I would have been better off eating rather than backing some of the ones I have. But always check the eggs.

Posted by: motormad Jan 17 2013, 04:53 PM

Then there you go. As long as it meets the specific percentiles outlined above then Joe Public can STFU and GTFO.

Posted by: Dodgys smarter brother. Jan 17 2013, 05:46 PM

I fear you may be displaying a little lack of knowledge here. There is, at present, a quite extraordinary array of drugs, stimulants and antibiotics which you are not allowed to pump into animals being reared for human consumption. No such rules govern horses or their meat. Thus in horse meat can be found anything from massive doses of growth hormones and industrial sized quantities of Ketamine (insert drug joke here) right through to equine steriods and incredibly powerful systemic antibiotics. Exactly the sort of thing we really don't want getting into us if at all possible.

Posted by: motormad Jan 17 2013, 09:52 PM

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=115173851992388


AHAAHAHAHAH.

Posted by: Roost Jan 18 2013, 12:03 AM

I washed my burgers down with some Bacardi and Captain Morgan.

White rum, dark rum and Red Rum.

Posted by: Ciderdrinker Jan 18 2013, 08:14 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCnrdu-61_0&feature=youtube_gdata_player Exclusive footage of how the meet might have got in to Tesco's stores.

Posted by: Ron Jan 18 2013, 10:21 AM

Great! Gave me the first laugh of the day.

Posted by: motormad Jan 18 2013, 10:30 AM

I posted it earlier.

Posted by: Gazzadp Jan 18 2013, 09:57 PM

What makes me laugh is all the pictures of the Tesco Market Range of Beef Burger boxes, you can see that on the box they are proudly stating "now made with X% more beef"!!!!!

Still they are will be ditching all that unused burger cartons, as they are now going to have to redesign/reprint all the cartons, but now they can say "new improved recipe".

Nice to see Morrisons sticking the boot in, anybody see their advert for their own brand beef burgers?

Posted by: Strafin Jan 19 2013, 08:05 AM

In real life, or on Facebook?

Posted by: Dodgys smarter brother. Jan 19 2013, 01:31 PM

Not to be outdone, ASDA are now apparently doing quarter pandas...

Posted by: NWNREADER Feb 1 2013, 10:35 PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21302925

Posted by: JaneGibbs Feb 1 2013, 11:02 PM

I bet that is just the tip of the iceberg. Over the next couple of months I am guessing that more food atrocities or surprises will be uncovered. As my mum and dad used to say, be careful what you eat as you never know what they actually put in the food, compared to what they tell you they put in the food. That is why my mum prefered to make home made food.

Posted by: motormad Feb 1 2013, 11:09 PM

Well the horse thing was brought to people's attention, now there will be a rasher of people with various food-related stories.
Remember the phone hacking scandal? Next it'll be something like pensions... in 3 weeks we'll have moved on.

Posted by: JaneGibbs Feb 1 2013, 11:12 PM

Maybe this latest incident, concerning the horses, might help the bookie trade.

Posted by: Penelope Feb 2 2013, 01:10 AM

Wouldn't bet on it.

Posted by: JeffG Feb 2 2013, 10:27 AM

About bacon, maybe...

Posted by: lordtup Feb 2 2013, 12:21 PM

Rather prophetic in view of the finding of pig meat in supposed halal food being offered to prisoners .
You couldn't make it up could you .

Posted by: NWNREADER Feb 2 2013, 01:08 PM

I rather suspect there will be a number of 'disclosures' as to the true content of processed foods.

Posted by: Turin Machine Feb 2 2013, 11:17 PM

Prophetic LOL

Posted by: Exhausted Feb 3 2013, 01:03 PM

One could quote the old saying, "What the eye doesn't see, the heart doesn't grieve about."

I watched a programme a while back about how sliced ham is produced from a slurry of meat from various parts of the pig and it almost put me off my toasted ham and cheese sandwiches but then I thought what the heck. That said though, I was less comfortable with eating horse, why I'm not sure though, as we eat most of the other four legged hooved animals but there is a feeling in the back of my mind that it's not quite right. If one is starving then it would be acceptable, I might even eat my mate if I was that hungry but in times of plenty, it's a no no. The French and Belgians might think otherwise and that may be how it got into our food chain, they didn't know that we wouldn't like it. We eat Belgian chocolate and French bread after all.

Posted by: On the edge Feb 3 2013, 01:42 PM

Having seen what happens when water is purified I'm not ultra keen on cheap tomatoes or sweetcorn. All goes to prove there's no such thing as a free (or cheap!) lunch.

Posted by: Penelope Feb 7 2013, 11:55 PM

And now,
"The meat of some beef lasagne products recalled by Findus earlier this week was 100% horsemeat, the Food Standards Agency (FSA) has said"

Makes you proud to be British.

Posted by: dannyboy Feb 7 2013, 11:58 PM

The Findus product affected was made in France.

Posted by: Penelope Feb 8 2013, 12:40 AM

Sold to us by British supermarkets.

Posted by: JeffG Feb 8 2013, 09:18 AM

Exactly. The fact it was made in France is irrelevant.

Posted by: Amelie Feb 8 2013, 10:55 AM

Horsemeat isn't really the problem, Bare-faced corporate greed and lying is.

Posted by: dannyboy Feb 8 2013, 11:41 AM

You really expect every shop to test every batch of every product?


get real.

Posted by: dannyboy Feb 8 2013, 11:41 AM

So JeffG, what is your constructive solution?

Posted by: JeffG Feb 8 2013, 11:42 AM

To what?

I just don't see how where it was made is relevant to the product being sold in UK supermarkets. So why mention it in the first place?

Posted by: Darren Feb 8 2013, 11:42 AM

And bought by the British public...

Out of curiosity, how many people have knowingly eaten horsemeat?

I have and while not a patch on a decent sirloin, it was't unpleasant and I'd have it again. Too much of this is down to lack of labelling and too much emphasis on cost over quality, which the buying public have to take the vast majority of the blame. Customers want ever-cheaper prices and at some point, the suppliers have to start cutting corners.

I wonder how much increase in custom butchers have seen?

Posted by: dannyboy Feb 8 2013, 11:43 AM

The issue of supermarkets selling stuff that isn't what is says on the tin.

Posted by: dannyboy Feb 8 2013, 11:44 AM

Very little - people would have to know what to do with a lump of raw meat first.

I can see the number of home food poisioning cases risisng.....

Posted by: dannyboy Feb 8 2013, 11:47 AM

I would imaging that a vat of rendered horse was sent to the beef lasagne production line in error.

Posted by: On the edge Feb 8 2013, 12:47 PM

Yes, I'll own up! Bit tougher than decent sirloin as you say; but frankly no worse than what gets served up from the cheap menu in some pubs. Apparently, its better for you; less cholesterol or some such. With some deft marketing, we could all be eating it, quite happily now.

To me, only issue is the misleading label. Who can you trust these days? MPs, Police, Bankers, Nurses, TV personalities and now the food industry. Seemingly we are all at it!

Isn't this really a Common Market issue? May well be a language issue in translation, in the coaching days, the horses were commonly referred to as cattle.

Posted by: NORTHENDER Feb 8 2013, 01:46 PM

As stated on here before, when I lived in France I ate quite a lot of it and nice it was too. I have trouble with being conned into eating it instead of the real thing, beef. The added worry is that some horses have some very strong medication pumped into them at times that is still there when they are slaughtered and humans are getting that into them also.

Posted by: On the edge Feb 8 2013, 02:09 PM

Those are the issues, I fear that this might open up a whole can of worms (literally) about what landfill gets ground up and added to cheap processed foodstuff. No such thing as a free lunch!

Posted by: Amelie Feb 9 2013, 06:36 PM

Mange tout...

Posted by: Washwaterman Feb 9 2013, 07:55 PM

How many findus/Tesco/Lidl/ products were consumed without consumer complaint before DNA tests proved 100% horsemeat?.

Posted by: NWNREADER Feb 9 2013, 08:36 PM

That is not the issue. Firstly, if I want beef I want something that comes from an animal that mooed before it died. A bit like buying a parrot...

Second, there are checks on the fitness of a carcass for human consumption including what it has been fed on/treated with before it died. We know pretty much they are reliable for the meat we traditionally eat - which includes the exotic meats. We are wise to be cautious about imposter meat.

Third, there is the value question. Some cuts and origins of meat are cheaper than others. If it were to be ok to replace the stated meat with something cheaper then the customer is ripped off.

Last, for some it is important that the meat eaten is not from particular animals.

There is much more to this than just the impact on consumer health

Posted by: Cognosco Feb 9 2013, 09:15 PM

Well it must be one very large vat to contain all the horse meat that has ended up in all the numerous products that has been detected so far. Not only that it has been reported that this may go back as far as last year? So not really a case of simple error really eh?
Also remember that the tests carried out so far was only for horse meat. No tests have been carried out for other types of meat that should have been beef. Who knows what other meats may have been added as well that have not been tested for?

I bet you would soon be complaining if you were served a pint of something in a pub that was inferior, and not what you asked for, and less than half the price you were charged for?

Posted by: On the edge Feb 9 2013, 09:17 PM

Tend to agree. There used to be a saying, let the buyer beware. The price of most of the products affected is so low there had to be something wrong. The grocer isn't likely to be taking a hit on his profit to be nice; we get what we pay for!

Posted by: Exhausted Feb 10 2013, 06:58 PM

It seems that the main source of the horsemeat is Romania where the price of that meat has dropped because of a ban on horse and carts on the roads.
Welcome to the EU Romania.
....And also, so much for the country which gave us Dracula

Posted by: MontyPython Feb 10 2013, 10:28 PM

I bought a parrot once and there was no mooing involved - what are you getting at?

Posted by: Turin Machine Feb 10 2013, 10:50 PM

Norwegian blue?

Posted by: Squelchy Feb 11 2013, 08:18 AM

Someone's missed the point completely.


Ah, a chance to bash 'johnny foreigner'. Too good to miss eh? Sadly, it seems most of these horses were in fact from Ireland, and were imported given false documents /horse passports and then sold on. 70,000 in all.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01qhqfq

Posted by: JeffG Feb 11 2013, 10:32 AM

The source is still being investigated. There is no concrete proof of anything yet. And is the Republic of Ireland any less a foreign country than Romania?

Posted by: Biker1 Feb 11 2013, 12:14 PM

I think this whole sorry episode is a result of an ever growing population needing to be fed with cheap food from an overstretched planet!
As the population of the planet ever increases the need to make available food stretch further will increase and this problem will not be the last of it's kind.
Not everyone can afford to shop at M&S and Waitrose!

Posted by: On the edge Feb 11 2013, 01:22 PM

You don't need to use M&S or Waitrose - just some common sense. Decent food is easily obtained at any supermarket; but you might have to do a little preparation. Don't just use preprepared readi meals - particularly those with exotic sounding names! Some of the most expensive meals I've had served turned out to be awful slop; when a baked spud with some cheese on top would have been quicker, cheaper and far more tasty.

Posted by: dannyboy Feb 11 2013, 01:33 PM

One batch of Findus lasagne. Not every frozen beef product. And horse meat isn't cheaper than beef.


And yes I would not be happy if I ordered X & got Y, but I would not assume it was some massive conspiracy to defraud.

Posted by: JeffG Feb 11 2013, 01:54 PM

Have you actually done a price comparison, or is this just something you've picked up from a third party? A sign I saw outside Waitrose on Sunday said all their branded goods are the same price as Tesco. Staple foods like milk are the same price as anywhere else. Sure, there are some luxury ranges for those that can afford them, but what's wrong with that?

Posted by: motormad Feb 11 2013, 02:04 PM

The cheapest soup in Waitrose is about 5 times the price of the that in Sainsburys.

Posted by: dannyboy Feb 11 2013, 02:07 PM

LOL, the irony!

Posted by: On the edge Feb 11 2013, 03:04 PM

...and the moral is don't trust what anyone tells you. In food terms, the less sophisticated the better!

Posted by: Biker1 Feb 11 2013, 03:19 PM

Yes and no.

Posted by: Cognosco Feb 11 2013, 04:43 PM

Not only Findus lasagne - Moussaka, Cottage pie, and various other ready meals and certainly not only Findus,
Horse meat is certainly cheaper in Romania than beef where it is suspected the meat originated from at the moment.
As the saying goes, watch this space. If Governments do not try to cover this up, as it involves the meat being shipped around Europe including Cyprus, then it has the makings of an international fraud problem.

Posted by: dannyboy Feb 11 2013, 04:47 PM

okay, one batch of meat filler as used in meals such as cottage pie, lasagne etc. All very similar.

Posted by: JeffG Feb 11 2013, 05:33 PM

Not with you.

Posted by: dannyboy Feb 11 2013, 05:38 PM

and again. LOL

Posted by: JeffG Feb 11 2013, 05:45 PM

Whatever amuses you.

Posted by: Cognosco Feb 11 2013, 05:46 PM

One very large batch if it has been going on since August??

Posted by: Exhausted Feb 11 2013, 07:24 PM

Is that when they first realised there was something afoot and we had eaten all the evidence..

Posted by: Spider Feb 25 2013, 05:52 PM

As somebody who is a horse lover I find recent events (horse in burgers) disturbing. Let us hope that the culprits are brought to justice and dealt with harshly. A collective European response will solve this problem. This will do a lot of damage to the meat trade, not only in this country but across Europe.

Posted by: blackdog Feb 25 2013, 06:05 PM

The horses are going to die anyway, why not eat them?

The worrying issue about the current scandal is that there are people out there prepared to break the law by selling cheaper meat as beef, when it isn't. Leading to the worry that they might not care about hygiene and food safety issues either.

I wouldn't mind eating horse, but I expect the packaging to tell me I am buying horse.

Posted by: Spider Feb 25 2013, 06:11 PM

Because unlike cows or sheep horses are pets. You wouldn't eat your dog or even a human? Yes, we are all meat, but there are limits.

You are correct the law is the main issue and as you correctly said 'hygiene and food safety issues'. That is why those people should be harshly punished.

Posted by: Simon Kirby Feb 25 2013, 06:15 PM

Something like 6 Billion people in the world alive today, and they're all going to die - so why not eat them? I'm guessing you'd choose not to, but the thrust of your argument is that it's all just protein. You might choose to eat horse, but there'll be people out there who would find eating horse morally or emotionally distasteful even where they have no objection to eating dead cows, and they're entitled to their view.

Posted by: Spider Feb 25 2013, 06:24 PM

I see your point but it is about taste and a conscience. Didn't we banish cannibalism? Only a non-cultured society eats their own. We are above that sort of thing. I accepted that that might be ok in a Labour society but not in a more cultured and mature society. I might add a mature society that the Lib Dems are trying to cultivate in the coalition. But with the Tory's not getting it, it will take time.

Posted by: Squelchy Mar 13 2013, 09:55 PM

Not Quite..

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/business/industries/consumer/article3712928.ece

Posted by: blackdog Mar 13 2013, 11:47 PM

The thrust of my argument is that horse meat is a common foodstuff eaten in many nearby companies, a fair amount if which is produced in this country and exported. Why add all those food miles - why not eat horse? Okay some will be squeamish about it, many are squeamish about eating other meats. I'm not suggesting anyone should be forced to eat horse, or that it should be sold as beef. As long as the product clearly shows it contains horse meat I see no reason why it shouldn't be sold.

Would I eat people? I would have some concern about whether many of us are fit for human consumption and would certainly worry about the idea of slaughtering people for food. Cannibalism is illegal, which would certainly deter me - philosophically I don't really see why we shouldn't make use of a good source of meat if it exists (soylent green anyone?). But no, I think my squeamishness level falls somewhere between horse and man.

Posted by: MontyPython Mar 14 2013, 03:49 PM

Which companies are you talking about? Vodafone? Bayer? Please tell!

Posted by: On the edge Mar 14 2013, 05:52 PM

That's a pretty radical idea! Shouldn't views be generated at party conferences?

Posted by: On the edge Mar 14 2013, 05:56 PM

In an earlier life you weren't a propagandist for World War 1 were you?

Posted by: motormad Mar 14 2013, 11:05 PM

I think Blackdog is right..
At the end of the day, meat is meat, protein is just that - There is no difference between a cow or a sheep or a horse.
Are you saying because someone appears to be more cute and fluffy, you can't eat it?

People in this country eat Rabbit, Beef (cow) Duck, Chicken, Lamb, Steak/Bacon (pig) and you know all of those can be pets. All over the rest of the world, the same along with Snail, Fish (technically a sort of meat, it's an animal people have as pets at the end of the day), Dog, Cats even, are all ate. Now am I saying would I like to have a cute fluffy kitten killed infront of me and then for me to eat it? Not particularly, but if it were for sale and it was tasty I would eat it.
It does not change my position as a huge cat lover and would not mean I'd chop up Jasper or Wednesday if I got a bit peckish..........Animals can be bred for recreation (pets) or bred for money, or bred for slaughter and food.

I think you have a very blinkered approach. To suggest that a sheeps life or a horses life is more valuable than a cow is preposterous. And like Blackdog says, if an animal is going to die ANYWAY and would be purchased by people to eat then what's the actual problem......

I would eat Human if it were for example the only meat available. If I were shipwrecked and needed to survive I would turn to eating the dead thin person next to me who's fat reserves ran out.
Who knows, maybe it's very nice, but at the end of the day, muscle tissue is just that and it wouldn't make a difference if it came from a cow or a sheep or a rats **** as long as it were safe to eat.

As a meat eater I am not up-my-own-**** enough to say well I can eat Cows because I don't like them but I won't eat sheep..........????!??!?!?!?

Now for you to sit there and say "you can eat beef, I don't care about that, you can't eat a sheep or a horse because it's peoples pet" is pretty ignorant to the world at large. It's like saying "I'm a vegetarian because I think animals should be left in nature and not killed to be eaten" and then go and eat some fish.
Joffas the lot of you.

Posted by: blackdog Mar 14 2013, 11:39 PM

Mein Gott! Did I really type that! Sorry - but I think you got the idea.

Posted by: Simon Kirby Mar 15 2013, 10:07 PM

I'm not sure that the acned arachnid was telling you what you could or couldn't eat, but rather explaining that meat isn't just protein, it's the flesh of something that was once alive, and that there is a range of attitude out there towards the dead animals people are happy eating with the English generally not eating horses, and perhaps more importantly, not much liking horses being eaten. It wasn't always thus, and it's far from universal, but horse is still something of a taboo.

So no, meat isn't just meat, flesh was once a living animal, and that engages, to a greater or lesser extent in different cultures and individuals, our innate respect for life. So it's not as simple as you choosing to eat whatever you like, because collectively we need to be mindful of the feelings of others - so vegetarians can't exactly impose their views, but neither can you indulge your carnality without a thought for the offence it might cause.

Posted by: NWNREADER Mar 15 2013, 10:42 PM

I assure you I can..... Nom Nom Nom....

Posted by: Simon Kirby Mar 15 2013, 11:12 PM

You can indulge it, but you can't indulge it without causing offence. I'm talking collectively, at the level that builds social norms, so I'm not suggesting that someone will walk over to your table in a restaurant and lamp you for ordering dobbin a la grecque, but rather that you won't find it on the menu because the clientèle wouldn't want to associate with a restaurant that served it. We do this all the time, and not just with food, and of course those social norms change, but as free as we like to think of ourselves, we're still bound by social custom which grows up around collective values.

Posted by: motormad Mar 16 2013, 12:05 AM

I understand what you're saying Si but that's not the point I'm trying to make.

And that's fine. But my point is saying you can't have a line in the sand anywhere you like. So this person doesn't like cows so eats burgers all day, but at the slightest hint of horse, neigh? Because they PERSONALLY like Horses? It's just daft. Because they are peoples pets?

So we can just use Horses that aren't pets?

Your standpoint HAS to be either "all animals are living things and I think it's wrong to eat them" or "I am fine with eating animals which are bred to slaughter".
The point RE Menu references is fair enough but it's peoples attitudes that are the problem, as I mention above, lines in the sand.

You can't go "well I will eat that delicious steak but I'll pass on the Spag-bol because I once rode a cow at a petting zoo".

Either all animals are equal and have absolute right to live or animals can be bred for slaughter as long as their conditions are right.. What's to stop you from saying "well I don't like Gingers let's kill all them......" (bit of a jump but you get my point)



To a point. The problem with being mindful of the feelings of others, is that most peoples feelings are completely bloody stupid. Like feeling that you can't eat a horse because people keep them as pets. But because people don't keep cows as pets, you can eat those.
And I have absolutely no remorse in eating meat, if someone finds that offensive than that is THEIR problem and I should not (and do not) have to worry about whether my liking a juicy steak "offends" them.
Nothing worse than some smarmy vegetarian going "you know that was once a living animal you know" and I say "yes and it's effing delicious!"

The whole religious side I'm want to avoid getting into because that is more of a culture thing and opens up a whole new area of discussion. But as a FOR EXAMPLE;
Thousands of years of people who practise Hindu/Buddhism etc, who's views and ways of life I am considerate to (while I think Religion as a whole is daft I wouldn't go to their country and eat cow for example out of RESPECT to their culture/religion ) but this is very different to Mr Pritchyard of Number 28, whom I do not give a crap about, whining because my little pony was eaten for dinner.

It's very different in terms of having respect for a culture, which generations upon generations of people throughout the country have lived to, than to a handful of people with double standards.

Posted by: Simon Kirby Mar 16 2013, 08:06 AM

Individually people are free to choose what they will and won't eat on any basis they like. You want their choice to be rational, but why should it be? We're not machines, we're emotional creatures, and we makes our choices emotionally as often as not.

But that's individual choice, and this isn't about any one individual's feelings, the horse-meat taboo is cultural, because in general people are not comfortable with eating horses. The degree to which you accommodate any specific individual's feeling really rather depends on how legitimate you believe their feelings are and how sensitive you are to causing offence, and it's entirely reasonable to exercise your own choices because that respect for individual choice cuts both ways.

Posted by: Strafin Mar 16 2013, 10:20 AM

I am very close to a vegetarian diet, it's not because of my beliefs or feelings I just don't eat a lot of meat. I did enjoy a burger last night though. What Simon says is very interesting, as an individual, you can't go out and eat dog for example, because our society won't let you. It is a collective thing. I know a lot of people who claim to be vegetarian but aren't really, and think this is caused by language rather than anything else. If you said you don't eat meat, people call you a vegetarian, when the two are actually quite different.

Posted by: Simon Kirby Mar 16 2013, 11:04 AM

That's very true. "Vegetarian" is a convenient label because people understand what it looks like, but for many people who might out of convenience describe themselves as vegetarian it's not a movement or system of belief that they follow (though it is for some), it's simply a convenient description of what their eating habits look like. For example I had a colleague who was kosher and rather than get into a Levitical discussion about what he could and couldn't eat he would say he was vegetarian - perfectly reasonable.

I'm a vegetarian, and I eat some fish, and I have a leather wallet and belt. If that looks inconsistent I'm not going to apologise because frankly it's none of anyone else's business. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be so tiresome as to challenge someone else over what they were eating if it was within the normal bounds of polite society, and I'd kind of expect the same courtesy. But eating horse is only just about on the edge of acceptable.

Another way to look at the question is this: would you eat rat? Rats are very common and eating them might possibly help control a pest, so if meat is meat, why don't people eat rat more often?

Posted by: JeffG Mar 16 2013, 11:38 AM

Oxymoron alert!

Posted by: NWNREADER Mar 16 2013, 11:39 AM

There is nothing 'wrong' with eating dog, cat, hamster, budgie, goldfish etc. I'm not even sure cannibalism is illegal - apart from the oft-used methods of obtaining the meat. If a restaurant bred dogs etc for eating, passed the food hygiene standards, and could find a clientele that made the business worthwhile, then it would be possible to order same off the menu. To 'offend' by so doing would be odd, as presumably every other customer would know what was on the menu and be prepared for someone to order such nibbles.
Differentiate 'wrong' from 'I don't like it'.

Posted by: motormad Mar 16 2013, 12:00 PM

So you want to us to ignore your own inconsistencies, saying you are a vegetarian bult use leather products and eat fish, yet for me wanting other people to ignore those who eat Horse is considered unfair?

Posted by: Strafin Mar 16 2013, 12:33 PM

Then you are not a vegetarian. http://www.vegsoc.org/page.aspx?pid=723#.UURmL4wgGSM

Posted by: JeffG Mar 16 2013, 02:03 PM

Wot I said.

To Motormad: Nothing wrong with vegetarians using leather products. Them's vegans.

Posted by: On the edge Mar 16 2013, 03:03 PM

R v Dudley and Stephens 1884 I think might help or not, particularly if you have a preference for sea food.

Posted by: Simon Kirby Mar 16 2013, 03:27 PM

Brilliant, now I've been kicked out of the vegetarian society.

Seriously though, there's a vegetarian society? FFS.

Posted by: motormad Mar 16 2013, 03:34 PM

Ah okay cheers for letting me know lol

Posted by: NWNREADER Mar 16 2013, 09:11 PM

That case does not make the eating of human flesh illegal, it only defines that necessity is no justification for killing
http://www.casebriefs.com/blog/law/criminal-law/criminal-law-keyed-to-kadish/the-justification-of-punishment/regina-v-dudley-and-stephens/

I suppose I have been rather rash with my use of the word cannibalism to describe the consumption of human flesh, as in some definitions it requires non-consensual death. While ghoulish and 'unacceptable'............

Posted by: On the edge Mar 16 2013, 09:41 PM

Phew! That's all right then, safe to go on the ferry again.

Posted by: blackdog Mar 17 2013, 10:09 AM

Yes I'd eat rat - but it's too ludicrously fiddly to eat such a small animal for me to start trapping them. I love rabbit and pigeon, but am too idle to faff about with the preparation to eat either very often.

If someone marketed rat burgers I'd give them a go.

Posted by: JeffG Mar 17 2013, 10:51 AM

That's a great euphemism for murder.

Posted by: NWNREADER Mar 17 2013, 01:05 PM

Interestingly (?) a case in Germany set out that even death by consent for the purpose of flesh consumption was murder....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armin_Meiwes

Posted by: JeffG Mar 17 2013, 02:35 PM

The moral seems to be, be careful who you get to repair your computer...

Posted by: NWNREADER Mar 17 2013, 03:18 PM

As Mr G Glitter et al would confirm

Posted by: JeffG Mar 17 2013, 07:04 PM

Yes - I see a blackmail opportunity here: I won't tell the police what I found if you let me eat you.