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Posted by: Bill1 Dec 22 2010, 09:54 AM

Pavements treacherous to say the least on Boundary and Kings Roads, until you get to the customer entrance, if coming from the Town Centre, to Sainsburys, at which point it's completely safe and clear of the Slush Puppy gone wrong stuff that pedestrians have had to negotiate to that point.

Once over the dual carraigeway, Kings Road West is almost as bad as the start of the journey, then you reach Cheap Street and voila, all clear again.

Colleagues who walk from other fringes of the town centre have reported the same thing, even one who lives near the Argyles Nursing Home.

Spread the love (well grit/salt) guys!

Posted by: spartacus Dec 22 2010, 08:03 PM

Thing is, it seems far too many people are wearing exactly the same work shoes in this 'orrible winter weather than they do during the summer..... Far too quick blame 'somebody' for "not gritting this or salting that", when they don't exactly help themselves in the first place....... Change your shoes folks! Wear something with tread on and you might not end up on your ar$e.....

Same goes for people driving around on tyres that barely meet the legal limit and then complain that they can't get any grip when a few flakes fall......... (but that's another thread..)

Posted by: gel Dec 23 2010, 11:47 PM

In Ireland Councils still clear the streets:
From Irish Times today:

Michael Phillips, Dublin City Council engineer, said 500 personnel were working to clear the streets to help shoppers and that some 100 army staff were helping to clear snow in and around transport hubs and hospitals

and in Ireland they pay no local tax/rates either

Posted by: Batfink Dec 24 2010, 08:55 AM

Is this the same Ireland who is effectively bankrupt?

Posted by: pinkfluffyclouds Dec 24 2010, 10:57 AM

No tax or rates Is that why they are in such a pickle then and having to be bailed out !!!

Posted by: Richard Garvie Dec 24 2010, 01:05 PM

Yeah, aren't WE paying £10bn to Ireland?

Posted by: Iommi Dec 24 2010, 01:11 PM

No, we're borrowing money and selling it to Ireland at a favourable rate, if that is what you mean. So-long as they pay up that is.

Posted by: Richard Garvie Dec 24 2010, 05:38 PM

Just wanted to say thank you to those who assisted me in Newbury this afternoon, fell over twice in ten minutes!!! Knock to the head, and a few bumps and bruises but I will live. Just leaves me asking how many others have fallen? It doesn't look bad in most parts of town, but some areas (including car parks by the Library and the paths near the police station / sainsbury's) are a disgrace.

Posted by: Turin Machine Dec 24 2010, 06:56 PM

I Blame the coalition !! Paths were clearer under labour, sky was bluer, beer was colder and everyone had a job. 'sigh' O' the good ole days !

Posted by: Richard Garvie Dec 24 2010, 07:26 PM

I believe the council should ask the probation service and cadets to help clear the ice from our streets when the weather is bad and put down grit on paths and public car parks. The roads in West Berks look ok from what I've seen, but the pavements are shocking. As the Government are not directly responsible for what streets get gritted, I would very much doubt that the buck could be passed on to them!!!

Posted by: Turin Machine Dec 24 2010, 07:42 PM

Aye ! conscription, thats t'answer

Posted by: user23 Dec 24 2010, 07:44 PM

Chain gangs clearing the ice, perhaps?

Dickie's found another bandwagon, it would seem.

Posted by: Turin Machine Dec 24 2010, 08:00 PM

Teach 'em some discipline, thats what I say !! Hangin's too good for 'em

Posted by: spartacus Dec 24 2010, 08:40 PM

Perhaps you should have have been wearing appropriate footwear Richard? Slick soled shoes designed for the carpetted corridors of the Labour Party Conference halls are hardly up to walking on snow are they..... Get yerself off to Millets, they've got special offers for 'proper footwear' for winter conditions....

Or were you out 'shopping' in the Lock Stock and Barrel?....

tsk tsk..... .... I dunno Richard.... And it's the Council's fault that you slipped.....


Today's blame culture eh?

Posted by: Richard Garvie Dec 24 2010, 09:31 PM

I haven't blamed anyone have I??? I simply suggested a way to try and get rid of the ice and slush nearly a week after the snowfall. The probation service are used all over the country for community projects and doing council work such as painting and gardening etc. Why not have these guys putting down grit? As for the cadets, if they were called to a battle zone, wouldn't they be doing civil work such as this? It would be good practice, and hasn't it been happening in other parts of the UK? Just suggesting that we follow the lead of other councils to get round potential issues like we seem to have had over the last week with footpaths and car parking areas. Maybe then I could get away with wearing a pair of shoes in the town centre without falling over!!!

Then again, West Berkshire Council could sit back and do nothing? I thought a few people may have been entertained by me falling over today, happens to the best of us!!! But for those who take it in a light hearted manner, how many people who fall put in compensation claims against the local authority?

Posted by: Darren Dec 24 2010, 10:01 PM

Probably none. If you are out walking on snow/ice you have a duty of care to yourself.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/nl1/newsroom/dg_191868

Of course, you could give it a try and see what happens.

Posted by: NWNREADER Dec 25 2010, 07:26 PM

'Cadets'? Who might they be?
Someone who knows what they are talking about may be able to shed light on the work that can be done by those on Community Service. I rather suspect mobilisation for such work is not so easily done

Posted by: Richard Garvie Dec 25 2010, 07:33 PM

Army cadets are used for civil projects when they are called into service, helping to clear key paths and car parking in emergencies would be good practice of working in a situation. As for community service, I don't see what would be restrictive in putting grit down on paths and car parks when these people cut the grass on council owned land and paint fences and such like.

Posted by: NWNREADER Dec 25 2010, 07:55 PM

'Army Cadets', 'called into service'. Now I know you are talking with your imagination. MACP is not simple by any means.

I don't know Community service people cannot do the work, it is eminently suitable. I just think it better to check before asking why they are not being used.

Posted by: gel Dec 25 2010, 08:52 PM

I've seen Community Payback "Volunteers" ie UK Chain Gang at Sneslsmore Common presumably litter picking.

Obviously not doable this weather so some grit/salt spreading would be good diversion of resources.

I'm sure Sheriff Joe Arpaio would have no hesitation in his jurisdiction ordering this:-
ones I saw just had yellow jackets, nothing like one of his chain gangs!!

Posted by: Richard Garvie Dec 25 2010, 09:12 PM

It's only a suggestion. As far as I know, community "payback" workers sit around drinking tea when the weather is bad and gardening / painting or whatever can't be done. Surely if they can't do what they normally do in the snow, then gritting would be an alternative?

Posted by: Bofem Dec 25 2010, 09:23 PM

No they don't. Only last weekend I saw around 20 of them working up at Snelsmore Common in sub-zero temperatures. Stop making it up!

Posted by: NWNREADER Dec 25 2010, 09:28 PM

What an admirable demonstration of what you know

Posted by: Darren Dec 26 2010, 08:20 AM

Army cadets are in a programme that is only sponsored by the Army. They have no service obligation and cannot be 'called out/up'.

Given that the age of Army Cadets is in the 12-18 years age, having them out clearing snow would be pretty close to child labour and it could be argued that they would attract the minimum wage for their efforts.

Perhaps if a few of the politicians and their lackeys got out and made an effort to clear it first, then perhaps others will follow. They produce enough hot air to melt the snow and dry the highways with ease.

Posted by: On the edge Dec 26 2010, 09:06 AM

Can't see why Richard Garvie's ideas have created so much excitement. Seem sensible to me - and highly visible proof for those who think community service orders don't happen.

As for cadets - quite agree there can be no conscription but was it totally out of order for our 'Chief' to get us clearing snow from OAP paths way back when I was a young sea cadet? We all thoroughly enjoyed it - as well as the mince pies and sweets provided the OAPs.

Back then of course, most peoplem cleared their own frontage, including the shopkeepers. Weren't we all silly!

Posted by: Darren Dec 26 2010, 09:16 AM

Then along came the shysters....

Still cannot find any legal precedent for anyone being sued after someone slipped on a pavement that had been cleared of snow.

Posted by: Richard Garvie Dec 26 2010, 09:53 AM

Hardly conscription or child Labour. If cadets were called into action, they would liely be doing things such as clearing runways etc. I bet if you approached the cadets, they would love to get involved. As for the probation service, they are there to assist the community with projects. The purpose of "payback" is to make up for some of the crime / offences committed.

Bofem, nothing wrong with the cold. But when it rains, I believe they sit in their vans or stay inside with little to do. Ken Clarke suggested he was going to change Community Payback so it was more of a punishment and benefitted the community more. I will gladly support those proposals being introduced here in West Berkshire (if they happen). Before they come in, I really can't see the harm in clearing pavements or putting down grit. Why is that different from painting fences or putting down salt?

Posted by: Richard Garvie Dec 26 2010, 09:55 AM

So is it child labour when they steward sporting events or direct traffic at large events? I think they would say that it is good practice and that their platoon get a nice donation towards new equipment.

Posted by: Darren Dec 26 2010, 10:24 AM

You mean the equipment that the Army provide?

They attend events for marshalling to raise finds for travel costs etc for camps. They should never be used for controlling traffic as they have no authority on the public road. Clearing pavements would be classed as MACC (Military Assistance to Civil Community) as that falls to the local authority.

How about the 3 million or so Labour-provided unemployed, or as you so deftly passed over, getting politicians to lead the way? I'm sure local parties will only be too keen to get out and help all those registered voters constituents/ward residents?

Posted by: On the edge Dec 26 2010, 10:50 AM

That's because there isn't one. Being cursed with a liong memory, I can remember the times when we thought you'd get sued if you DIDN'T remove snow from your frontage! This latest nonsence has been put about by the usual little people. Indeed, last winter we had one of our own 'rent a quote' councillors sounding off - then having to rapidly retract.

We, the people, really ought to be making much much more of a fuss - to stop this 'claims culture' - which is really anti social behaviour in another guise. A lot is lazy legal people making out of Court settlements - but we can do our bit - making sure anyone who suggests 'they have a claim' is put right.

Posted by: Simon Kirby Dec 26 2010, 01:34 PM

Two years back the main north and east ditches around the Wash Common allotment were overgrown and useless. For the previous 13 years I'd happily kept my section of the south ditch clear, as the site rules required me to do, but the reigeme changed at the council a few years ago and the Council started to build up their maintenance empire and I was told not to clear the ditch. I cleared it anyway. Cllrs Fenn and Bairstow came over to complain, and one of their issues was "what about insurance". Well, what about insurance? Anyways, the Council changed the rules so that I couldn't clear the ditch anymore.

Posted by: JeffG Dec 26 2010, 02:41 PM

Exactly. What has insurance got to do with something you decide to do voluntarily off your own bat? If you fall in and break a leg, it's your fault entirely! Crazy.

Posted by: Simon Kirby Dec 26 2010, 03:23 PM

Quite so. As land owner the Council own me a duty of care (Occupier's Liability Act 1984) so if they've laid man-traps in the ditch then there might be a question of negliagence should I lose a leg in one, but other than that I'm accepting the usual risks of slips and trips, manual handling, Weil's disease, etc, so there's no claim on the Council should I come a cropper, and should I cause 3rd-party damage while I'm ditch clearing the situation is no different to anything else I might be up to on the allotment or anywhere else for that matter and as I don't consider it prudent to carry 3rd-party insurance in any other (non-driving) aspect of my private life I'm not going to do it when I clear a ditch.

Interestingly enough though, as land lowner the Council do have a higher duty of care to me on the allotment than the local authority do for public areas in general, so just as I have a duty of care to visitors to my house (as against the pavement outside my house) to keep my path ice-free and non-slippery, the Council do have to maintain the allotment paths in a non-slippery condition, whereas that's not the case for pavements on the street.

Posted by: Simon Kirby Dec 26 2010, 03:36 PM

No, there isn't any. You owe the pavement user a common-law duty of care so if someone slipped on a pavement you'd cleared they would have to prove negliagence on your part, and to do that you would have to have done something extraordinarily stupid. All things being equal clearing off the snow and ice is better than not, though putting down road salt afterwards is better still. I've done mine and my neighbours either side.

Posted by: On the edge Dec 26 2010, 03:38 PM

How sad - but its up to us, elections are looming. Lets go for leadership this time folks!

Posted by: Richard Garvie Dec 26 2010, 05:54 PM

I'd happily volunteer for a bit of snow clearing of salt laying. Darren, I'm not asking for the council to make it compulsory, I'm suggesting that the council could contact the probation service and ask for their assistance like they do with grafitti clearing etc. As for cadets, I know that they take care of traffic management at certain football clubs, sporting events and festivals. In other areas, the local authority have approached the local cadets and scouting organisations asking for assistance. It's not like they are being forced to do it, but they are doing it to help their local area.

I'm not claiming that these ideas are mine, I've seen them employed elsewhere and I think it's positive and should be considered here. What we need in West Berkshire is to try new ways to tackle the problems that keep coming up over and over again. For whatever reason, when these problems come up, we go for the tried and failed West Berkshire method time and time again. It doesn't take much to look at other areas who have dealt with similar problems in the past.

Posted by: NWNREADER Dec 26 2010, 06:34 PM

Here is how to suggest any works as suitable for 'community payback':
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/CrimeJusticeAndTheLaw/PrisonAndProbation/DG_070333

Rather than just ask 'whoever' why it hasn't been done, suggest to the right people what could be done. Then the role will either be accepted or an explanation will be given as to why it is rejected.

That answer may be unpalatable, but is a fresh debate....

Posted by: Richard Garvie Dec 26 2010, 07:02 PM

I know exactly why it hasn't been done already. Nobody has requested it. You could also contact the local probation team to discuss ideas, if you were in a position to do that of course.

Posted by: NWNREADER Dec 26 2010, 07:25 PM

As it says in the information, anyone can make the request/contact the probation team. There is no requirement for any 'position'.
So anyone at all who sees any opening for work to be done simply picks up the phone.......

Posted by: Richard Garvie Dec 26 2010, 11:49 PM

Are you suggesting that I call them? I'll happily do it, but it won't make any difference if I suggest it as I'm not in a position to make it happen. As for politicians clearing the snow, I was actually away when it happened but I'll happily make myself available for anything from clearing streets to delivering soup etc. to the elderly.

What about asking local people to sign a register for such circumstances? In one city in America, they have something which works like the retained firefighters in that when they have serious snow fall, around 100 volunteers gather to clear snow and ice. I don't think it's a lack of community spirit, I just think nobody has suggested ideas like these here to make it happen.

Posted by: Iommi Dec 27 2010, 12:42 AM

That and soaring council tax in the past means people wish to see something back. In any case, most places in Newbury have been OK. It has been far better this time round than what it was like at the beginning of the year.

Posted by: Richard Garvie Dec 27 2010, 12:26 PM

I've already posted elsewhere, but credit where credit is due, the roads are much better, it's only the pavements which are an issue and car parks.

Posted by: On the edge Dec 27 2010, 12:30 PM

This probably goes back to an earlier point you made. Having heard all the complaints and seeing what's going on, one might have expected WBC to have used a bit of gumption and put a global request in - even clearing town centre paths would have been something.

I appreciate that doesn't absolve us from doing just that - but I certainly didn't know it was up to us to ask for 'community service' work to be done. Having asked around, that's a new one on most people!

Posted by: user23 Dec 27 2010, 01:08 PM

A global request? Don't you think going to the United Nations and asking for aid might have been a bit much.

Posted by: On the edge Dec 27 2010, 03:06 PM

Nice one!

Posted by: Andy1 Jan 4 2011, 11:46 AM

Dublin not Ireland as a whole.