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Posted by: Carshot May 16 2016, 08:32 AM

Is it not time that a ticket machine was installed at Newbury Racecourse railway station? Particularly with the increased use from the new properties built there. Currently there is none, and (some) ticket inspectors insist you should get off at the first station where there are ticketing facilities and then re-board to continue your journey. I queued for 10 minutes at Reading yesterday to buy a ticket and leave the station. An app that would allow purchasing a ticket (that did not require visiting a station with printing facilities) would help.

Posted by: On the edge May 16 2016, 09:44 AM

I'm not sure the inspectors are supposed to be doing that. There are several stations where machines aren't installed, or sometime out of action. I quite often see passengers pay the inspector without any fuss or comment. So, if ever one suggesting doing what you've said, simply use your mobile and call GW; they'll put him straight.

Lack of machines at rural stations can perhaps be forgiven given the predilection of the British drunk to vandalise anything that has buttons and lights. Hopefully, GWs IT people are well on the way to delivering something like the TfL Oyster or cashless solutions which will solve the problem completely.

Posted by: Carshot May 16 2016, 10:43 AM

Re-reading my posting I could/should have been clearer. I meant to say in the instance where there was no opportunity to buy a ticket on the train from the Racecourse. Where there is an inspector on the train from the Racecourse I have been sold a ticket without a problem. When I have travelled, for instance to Oxford without a chance to buy a ticket I am told by Oxford station inspectors I should have queued at Reading to buy a ticket. I agree the solution you suggest would work well & hope it is in the pipeline

Posted by: On the edge May 16 2016, 12:41 PM

Ah I see. Looks like there are some Inspectors who need a sharp lesson in customer service then. A stiff letter to the CEO might help; pointing out that if this ill conceived demand is right, then good manners. If not good customer service means they should post effective notices at the station gate, properly resource trains and ticket offices at all times. Sadly, this isn't an uncommon phenomenon when little people are given uniforms to wear; so making a formal complaint might well help.

Posted by: Andy Capp May 16 2016, 04:36 PM

I have in the past just took a picture with my phone of the Out of Order message, then boarded the train.

Posted by: Mr Brown May 16 2016, 06:19 PM

Awhile back, I got on at Thatcham when the machine was down, changed at Reading onto the Guildford train where the conductor issued me with a return ticket without any comment. It may just be that the Oxford inspector had a strop on.

Posted by: Biker1 May 17 2016, 04:02 PM

Can I draw your attention to the second clause "You must travel with a valid ticket" paragraph 2 https://www.gwr.com/your-journey/tickets-railcards-and-season-tickets/revenue-protection-policy.
Also while youre on that page click on "revenue protection policy" and scroll to page 13 second clause down "Buy your ticket as soon as you can".
Then click on "buying before you board" and have a look at page 4 clause 3 "Can I buy my ticket at my destination if I am in a rush?"

Posted by: Andy Capp May 17 2016, 04:57 PM

In a nutshell, if there are no facilities to buy a ticket you may broad the train so long as you buy one at the next practical opportunity, but you will risk being fined if you cannot provide a reasonable excuse to be without a valid ticket. Being in a rush or not having enough time to buy are not legitimate reasons for boarding without a ticket.

I once boarded without a ticket, but the station only had a part-time ticket office which was closed and the ticket machine was out of order. I took a picture of the error on the screen and boarded the train.

Sometimes there is a ticket inspector who will ask to see tickets from new passengers and might sell a ticket then. In my case there wasn't and while my train stopped at Reading I wasn't changing train.

When I arrived at my destination they were inspecting all tickets and I had to explain why I was without a ticket. I was also asked for my proper home address and the station I first boarded, I was then sold a ticket at the normal price.

The whole time I felt it was by discretion and I may have been fined and would have needed to appeal to get my fine cancelled.

Posted by: Biker1 May 17 2016, 05:03 PM

That's correct. You must buy at the first available opportunity.
This means that if there is a ticket seller or train manager on board it is your responsibility to approach them and buy, not the other way round.
ALL HSS services have a train manager who can sell you a ticket. (Unless their machine is out of order, which will have been notified to staff).

Posted by: Andy Capp May 17 2016, 05:13 PM

So further to the above, one is not expected to get off at a station en route solely to buy a ticket, but you will be if you have to change trains or the train is timetabled to wait with sufficient time to do so. What happens if the first journey is delayed leaving little or no time for the connection is not clear, but a would imagine that would be accepted.

It looks to me they can spot a genuine case and someone trying it on.

Posted by: Biker1 May 17 2016, 05:28 PM

Correct.

Probably not. You must buy a ticket at the station you change at if facilities are available regardless of how long you have to do so.
If you board at a station where facilities are not available (you can check beforehand if so) then you must make provision to buy at the first opportunity. However, see last sentence below!!

Yes they can, but a lot also depends on the attitude of the passenger. Give a load of lip or abuse and you will probably make things worse for yourself.

Posted by: Andy Capp May 17 2016, 05:53 PM

In the event your train has been delayed, to then not accept you had no time to buy a ticket and catch your connection is crap. If that is the case then they deserve to get ripped off on my view.

Posted by: Biker1 May 17 2016, 05:56 PM

Agreed.
Like I said, if you explain the situation (and they can check) in a calm pleasant manner, then it is unlikely you will be penalised.

Posted by: Andy Capp May 17 2016, 05:57 PM

Then why did you just say probably not? Or did you misread/understand what I wrote?

Posted by: On the edge May 17 2016, 06:09 PM

Bikers outline of the rules and interpretation of their implementation is really illuminating. I'm minded to get in touch with the passenger focus groups, this is quite outrageous. In effect, using nineteenth century powers and rules to impose quite unreasonable service standards.

There is no reason why this 'rule' which is quite important for travellers shouldn't be published on a very clear notice by the entry gate of unmanned stations. Equally, the railway company should provide easy and fast provision for accepting payment on ALL trains. What's wrong with an onboard vending machine for trains with no conductor? If that is too much trouble, why, with the massive sum spent on rebuilding Reading Station does it take so long to buy a ticket? Yes, I appreciate some passengers are likely to react very badly when confronted in today's railway environment; but given this lamentable service standard, it's not surprising. Sad really; we are spending all these millions, but there won't be any real improvement until rail management attitudes are modernised.

Posted by: Biker1 May 17 2016, 07:17 PM

Because most passengers, when challenged, rather than give a reasoned explanation in a calm manner, become angry, rude or abusive.
Technically, if a ticket was not purchased at the changing station then it is an irregularity but, like most in authority (apart from traffic wardens) most will accept a valid reason if politely explained.

Posted by: On the edge May 17 2016, 07:31 PM

Spot on

BUT

If the rail company has frustrated the purchase of a ticket by failing to make proper provision at the station, or as a reasonable person might reasonably expect, on the train or at Reading with efficiency, then the passenger can reasonably be expected to be frustrated.....with the usual result!

Posted by: Biker1 May 17 2016, 07:34 PM

I agree with much of what you say OTE.
There should be someone to take fares on all trains that call at unmanned stations.
I would imagine, what with DOO trains etc. the reason is to cut staff costs.
If some of the TOC's have their way many more ticket offices will close. Some have already. (not GWR yet).
Unfortunately some members of our society find ways of breaking into even the most secure ticket vending machines (TVM's) so they do not hold or take cash any more.

Posted by: Biker1 May 17 2016, 07:41 PM

Again I agree, except there is NO excuse for taking out ones frustrations on the front end people who are trying to do the job for which they were employed and trained.
It has no effect on improving things whatsoever.
Direct your venom at those who can make a difference. There are many ways of doing so.

Posted by: Andy Capp May 17 2016, 07:52 PM

All staff on FGW (or whatever it is called) have been fine I have found, but then I'm a genuine punter I suppose. My beef with trains is usually based around Railtrack, but then I would imagine they have their challenges too. Like I have said before, I'm not a fan of Reading station.

Posted by: On the edge May 17 2016, 09:30 PM

I suspect we are in violent agreement, if you'll forgive the words. Yes, venting one's frustrations in an unpleasant way to the people up front is quite wrong and unacceptable. I'm simply pointing out that it's sadly inevitable with elements of the population. It is an executive decision to chisel operating costs to the extent that staffing levels are so reduced and funding so limited to prevent the installation of more vending machines. Again, unacceptable as that is, we can understand why it's done; to maintain the dividend and protect director emoluments. So who can put things to rights? In my view, the government appointed Regulators, that's the official route. I'll certainly drop them a line, but having done so in the past, I have serious doubts as to their effectiveness. At the end of the day, the way we put the railways back into private ownership was driven by city greed and political ideology rather than common sense and logic.

Posted by: On the edge May 17 2016, 09:31 PM

I suspect we are in violent agreement, if you'll forgive the words. Yes, venting one's frustrations in an unpleasant way to the people up front is quite wrong and unacceptable. I'm simply pointing out that it's sadly inevitable with elements of the population. It is an executive decision to chisel operating costs to the extent that staffing levels are so reduced and funding so limited to prevent the installation of more vending machines. Again, unacceptable as that is, we can understand why it's done; to maintain the dividend and protect director emoluments. So who can put things to rights? In my view, the government appointed Regulators, that's the official route. I'll certainly drop them a line, but having done so in the past, I have serious doubts as to their effectiveness. At the end of the day, the way we put the railways back into private ownership was driven by city greed and political ideology rather than common sense and logic.

Posted by: Andy Capp May 18 2016, 01:41 AM

The vending machines can be a bit of a challenge when they do work, especially when it is close to departure time and you have a queue behind you.

Posted by: Biker1 May 18 2016, 05:00 AM

Better get used to it AC!
The rail company's vision of the future appears to be to remove the human interface as much as possible and replace with TVM's.
Here is a list where Southern plans to or has already done so this year.
Battersea Park
Carshalton Beeches
Gipsy Hill
Peckham Rye
Queens Road Peckham
Selhurst
Streatham
Streatham Common
Streatham Hill
South Croydon
Tulse Hill
Wandsworth Common
West Norwood

Posted by: On the edge May 18 2016, 06:01 AM

Which is all fine and Dandy, IF the machines and processes are perceived by the public to work properly and well. That this is Southern, brings into focus their present industrial dispute; leading one to suspect that the Trades Union has had to pick up the role abdicated by the Regulator.

Posted by: Berkshirelad May 18 2016, 08:34 AM

Fine



I fail to see a need to have an address; either they accept what you are saying and sell you a ticket or they issue a penalty - your address is irrelevant either way and I am not sure that they have the right to demand it

Posted by: Andy Capp May 18 2016, 11:31 AM

They do; it is an offence to fail to give it when asked if you are travelling without a valid ticket.

If you don’t have a valid ticket

If you can’t show us a valid ticket for your journey, we may:
• charge you the full price ticket
• give you a UFN or a PFN
• report you to our Prosecutions Department

If we ask for your details

Our staff can ask you for your name and address if they
think you haven’t paid the right fare. Please give them
the right details – it’s against the law to refuse or give the
wrong details.

Posted by: On the edge May 18 2016, 01:09 PM

Interesting that. Some customer service standard that; if you don't keep our rules even when we make it very difficult for you to do so, we'll treat you like a common criminal. Nice that!

Posted by: Biker1 May 18 2016, 02:59 PM

I disagee.
People such as AC obviously say they have issues even when the machines are working properly.

Posted by: Biker1 May 18 2016, 03:01 PM

They obviously need it if they are to issue a penalty.


They do.

Posted by: On the edge May 18 2016, 04:30 PM

I wonder how you'd feel if other traders made it very difficult for you to pay, and then when you did, treated you as if you were a shoplifter? Is it really to much to ask for a conductor or even a vending machine to be on each train?

The under resourcing bit is decidedly odd, when the rail companies make such a fuss about people trying to avoid fares; where the standard way of drawing attention to this is to do a mob handed ticket inspection.

After selecting some clothes in M&S recently, the tills near the men's ware section were blocked by two elderly ladies having a long tedious debate about the merits of a dress. The only other one wasn't open. Annoyed at the delay, I took my stuff down stairs and went to a food hall check out.....not a murmer, stuff wrapped and bagged, money taken, and without me making any comment, 'thanks for that Sir, I'm really sorry about upstairs, we haven't got it quite right yet'. It's called customer service.....

Posted by: Turin Machine May 18 2016, 05:27 PM

I used to catch the train from hungerford to Newbury sat eves, no machine, no inspectors and the Newbury ticket office lo does and bolted!

Posted by: On the edge May 18 2016, 05:43 PM

.....ahem, could you provide your full name and address, together with the number of times you did this.

If you don't we know where you live.....

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome May 18 2016, 06:34 PM

1970s rolling stock...
1970s Unions....
1970s infrastructure...
Trains that catch fire...
Trains that don't run because of the wrong type of snow,rain,sun etc.
Suicides by the dozen delaying Trains..
I could go on... Getting to work is a lottery.

Buying an actual ticket is the least of my worries. Plan ahead. Simples.

Posted by: x2lls May 18 2016, 06:55 PM

That says a lot. But does it?, or is it just a load of bullet points with no further influence on today,than the invention of the wheel , or the pencil.

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome May 18 2016, 07:27 PM

Its just a grumble. I'm saying we have a lot more problems with the railways than buying tickets. U can't get anywhere these days without going through a barrier so just get one before you leave. I would say train companies could help themselves by having an app that would produce an on line ticket that could be scanned.

Posted by: Andy Capp May 18 2016, 07:32 PM

The machines I have used are not exactly like this, but this gives you an idea:

http://www.southernrailway.com/tickets-and-fares/buying-tickets/ticket-vending-machine-videos

The point is, even when you know how to use the machine it can take a while to complete the transactions, but just look at the options you have to digest. Meanwhile it is peacing with rain (if outside) and you have a small queue behind you AND you have the pressure of making sure your choices are correct. It is fine if it is a routine purchase, but not so easy for occasional users.

Compared to going to a kiosk and saying:

Me: can I have the cheapest ticket to Twickenham please?
Clerk: Same day return?
Me: yes.
Clerk: That will be seven thousand eight hundred pounds and six pence please.
Me: Thank you. Can you tell me when the next train is please?
Clerk: yes. In 8 minutes from platform 3, change at Reading.
Me: OK thanks.

Or like yesterday where the clerk advised me that it would be cheaper to catch a train after 9. You don't get that kind of service with a ticket machine.

Posted by: Andy Capp May 18 2016, 07:33 PM

We have bigger problems in life that trains. It doesn't negate the discussion though!

Posted by: On the edge May 18 2016, 09:12 PM

I agree; one of the biggest problems we face in this Country was the botched privatisation of several public infrastructures - where money we could have invested in more effective and economic systems has simply been sucked out and spent overseas. Remember all those little Sids who got enough for a week on the Costa, buying then selling initially? Clever weren't they! So sure, plan ahead, when confronted with a ballot paper, put the X in the right box. Simples.

Posted by: Biker1 May 18 2016, 09:21 PM

1970s rolling stock... HST's yes but soon to be replaced
1970s Unions.... correct
1970s infrastructure...incorrect and you would soon feel the adverse effect if it still was
Trains that catch fire...very rarely and not as often as lorries on the A34!
Trains that don't run because of the wrong type of snow,rain,sun etc. as do other forms of transport
Suicides by the dozen delaying Trains.. No comment!!!
I could go on... Getting to work is a lottery. as it is other forms of transport

Buying an actual ticket is the least of my worries. Plan ahead. Simples. Think you put a plural in there by mistake!!

Posted by: Biker1 May 18 2016, 09:35 PM

The problem being that, for some reason, people do not equate not paying their rail fare with stealing or doing anything wrong.
The same people who would not dream of stealing a loaf of bread from Sainsburys will see it as a triumph to get from London to Newbury without paying and that is a problem that the TOC's have to face.
This, unlike buying some menswear in Marks & Spencer where it would be obvious, makes it difficult to tell the difference between deliberate evasion and those who have made a genuine mistake.
Not saying that they are perfect OTE but unfortunately fare evasion is a constant challenge to the tune of around 1/4 £Bn a year!

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome May 18 2016, 09:46 PM

A train caught fire today! Electrification delayed. New trains in pipeline... Believe em when I see them. Just saying I have travelled by train to work for 2 years and am now seriously considering going back to the car. And I hate driving.

Posted by: Andy Capp May 18 2016, 09:50 PM

I sympathise with that view, but then I think about how many people have to stand while paying the same money as those with a seat.

Posted by: TallDarkAndHandsome May 18 2016, 10:00 PM

And how first class is empty and everyone is jammed in like sardines in cattle class. Time to end first class?

Posted by: Ron May 18 2016, 10:29 PM

If you travel by coach from Oxford to London it is a case of 'no seat available no ride'. That's in a vehicle traveling at 60mph? not 100+mph.
7903 steamed today Biker and is being inspected by insurance inspector tomorrow. With a bit of luck we will have a few 'dry' runs.

Posted by: Biker1 May 19 2016, 04:58 AM

I knew you were going to say that!
It's still rare. Can't remember the last time.
Can't think of an excuse for the delay though..........not acceptable!


If you look to your right as you pass into Paddington at a depot called North Pole you will see one of the new trains which is currently on test.

It's not only the trains that are overcrowded, so are the roads as you will find if you do this.
I suspect that no matter how many carriages you put on trains or how many roads you build the problem will not go away.
We live in an overcrowded country, but that's another debate.

Posted by: On the edge May 19 2016, 06:28 AM

That's an interesting one; to give them their due, Great Western trains are seemingly doing that, or at least, significantly reducing the numbers of first class seats. There is another story though. A chap who squeezed next to me one evening from Paddington was bemoaning the fact the first class was full, it turned out he worked for a public authority and 'was entitled to first class travel' !!! A case of do as we say, not as we do.

Posted by: On the edge May 19 2016, 06:42 AM

Actually Biker, I do have great sympathy with the rail operating people right now; they have a literally thankless and almost impossible task.

Sure, overcrowding is a big contributor, but we, the people, are pretty good at scoring own goals; such as the migration of jobs from Newbury and the re-habitation of the town centre.

Posted by: x2lls May 19 2016, 08:08 AM

I agree, we do it for cars, RingGo/ParkMobile etc. perhaps they could be integrated. Buy a ticket and a parking space?

Posted by: On the edge May 19 2016, 08:24 AM

From what I've been hearing, such things are on the way. For instance, TfL has simplified matters in London, you just need your bank card, less hassle even than an Oyster card.

Posted by: Rdg May 19 2016, 09:23 AM

Or when I was told if you are changing line at Reading it does not count as a break of travel to leave the station therefore you can get a Newbury to Wokingham return stopping for a days work in Reading rather than Newbury/Reading return and Reading/Wokingham return as I had done many times before using machines, a huge saving.

By other bugbear on the machines is not rain so much as sun, several of them are placed in such locations that bright sunlight falls on the screen making them near unreadable (and seemingly the touchscreen less responsive as well)

I would happily pay a 50p extra ticket price if that allowed decent manning levels at the stations, it is still cheaper/quicker than the bus where a parallel service exists and less hassle than the car for long distance (if booked in advance at a decent price)

Posted by: On the edge May 19 2016, 10:21 AM

It's not just railway machines, NatWest in Market Place are dreadful in this respect. The staff inside actually blame WBC's planning regulations. Err, it's really poor design and installation, which is down to them. Bad human/machine interface also on display inside - cheques have to be inserted the 'other way round' to the bank card you've just put in the slot above.

Posted by: motormad May 19 2016, 01:03 PM

Trains are just silly.
Better to not use them eh. :-)

Posted by: On the edge May 19 2016, 01:38 PM

I know a good few people looking forward to using driverless cars instead.

Posted by: Rdg May 19 2016, 02:41 PM

not me

Driverless train is fine (it has rails and little chance of avoidable obstructions)

Cars - count me out, I'll be fighting with motormad for last place in that queue

Posted by: Biker1 May 19 2016, 03:26 PM

With any train ticket (apart from advance) you can break your journey at any station along
the route of the ticket. Just show it to the staff if at a gateline i.e. do not put it through the machine!
For example, say you have a ticket from Newbury to Birmingham. You can get off and look around Reading, Oxford, Banbury, Leamington etc. (or even maybe Tackley or Culham!)

Posted by: Rdg May 19 2016, 04:41 PM

Didnt use to be the case i once (1980's) got on a train from London to Sheffield for a uni interview and only after the door locked sign came on did I hear "passengers are reminded blue saver returns are not valid on this train" the inspector took pity on me and rather than the >£100 surcharge (£10 + double the single full fare) let me get off at Watford to await the next rain. At watford the barrier staff told me if I exited the platform (let alone station) I would be breaking my journey and have to pay for anew ticket. So I spent an hour in sideways rain in what was basically a bus shelter freezing

Posted by: Biker1 May 20 2016, 07:27 AM

And OTE wants to go back to BR!!

Posted by: On the edge May 20 2016, 08:29 AM

Nice one Biker! Anyway I'm in good company, even the Daily Mail want to do that.

Posted by: Rdg May 20 2016, 02:28 PM

The only good thing about BR was knowing you could get a 3 cheese pizza baguette in any travellers fayre on any station in the country and it would equally burn the top of your mouth off and all the buffet cars would sell McEwans Export

Posted by: On the edge May 20 2016, 03:09 PM

What is even more odd, is Mr Cameron and his merry band of pilgrims wanting to stay in Europe, where the railways are run by apparently efficient de-facto monopolies. Frankly, as we've made such a porridge of managing our railways, I quite like the idea of SNCF or DB having a go. Sad really, we Brits seem to have lost the savvy and skills to run successful and efficient commercial operations.

Posted by: Biker1 May 20 2016, 06:49 PM

Great Eastern
Scotrail
Both rum by Abellio....Parent Company.. Dutch National Rail

Arriva Trains Wales
Chiltern Railways
Cross Country
Grand Central Trains
Northern Rail
All Run by Arriva.........Parent Company Deutsche Bahn.. German State Railway

London Midland
South Eastern
Southern / Thameslink and Great Northern
All Run by Govia......Parent company Keolis..35% owned by SNCF (French National Railways).

FREIGHT

DB Schenker (UK's largest freight operator)......Parent Company Deutsche Bahn.. German State Railway

Posted by: On the edge May 21 2016, 06:34 AM

That's very interesting. I didn't realise just how much of this was going on. Perhaps I should have made my post much clearer. The main issue as I see it, is that the market theory of separating track, rolling stock and operation works only for the owners and the bankers - but not the passengers. Its simply perverted political dogma. The railway is a de-facto monopoly; something recognised in Stockton many years back when it was first mooted. That the de-facto public railways from other Countries see the UK as a brilliant place to extract money is proof that the present British model is not there to serve the public. However, it is classic Adam Smith in action. So what like to see is rather than the UK letting these continental firms subsidise their home operation, is for one or other of them to run the UK operation on the Continental basis; that would include the RailTrack and 'Leasing Co' bits as well. Ironic really, perhaps this step at a time take over is part of the Tory conversion to socialism. No wonder 'Dave' doesn't like Jeremy Corbyn; its just jealousy!